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Lousy Shot
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just in case you need a reminder of the vicious unadulterated evil in this world ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2077059/Jimmy-Lee-Massey-forced-woman-watch-torture-dismember-Carina-Saunders.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
Terrified woman 'forced to watch as human trafficking gang tortured, dismembered and beheaded teenage girl in front of her'

A teenager was tortured and cut up in front of another woman so she would be frightened into cooperating with a human trafficking ring, police said.

Jimmy Lee Massey, 33, was arrested over the first-degree murder of Carina Saunders, 19, whose dismembered body was found stuffed in a duffel bag. The young woman had been beheaded and dumped on October 13 behind a grocery store.

A 20-year-old woman came forward as a witness to say she had been kidnapped by Massey and forced to watch Miss Saunders painful death in Bethany, Oklahoma. Her identity has not been released because of concerns for her safety.

...

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2077059/Jimmy-Lee-Massey-forced-woman-watch-torture-dismember-Carina-Saunders.html#ixzz1infzoUZz
Make the jump for a photo of the victim, who was chosen at random.

I just came across this today. A Google search yields surprisingly little coverage of such an appalling crime. Mostly, the coverage is from international news services, and is only regurgitated by domestic news organizations, with none of them being major syndicates. Do you suppose the mainstream media would rather not remind us of the evil in our society that can victimize any one of us at any time? That maybe people might become more inclined to obtain the means to defend themselves from random victimization?
 

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Horrific. Truly appalling. Poor girl apparently ran with the wrong crowd. I have a friend in Oklahoma and she says there's a lot of latin gangs from south of the border there and turning out girls is a big thing. Also surprised Fox news or someone didn't pick up this story.

Poor girl. RIP.

 

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BLAMMO said:
I just came across this today. A Google search yields surprisingly little coverage of such an appalling crime. Mostly, the coverage is from international news services, and is only regurgitated by domestic news organizations, with none of them being major syndicates. Do you suppose the mainstream media would rather not remind us of the evil in our society that can victimize any one of us at any time? That maybe people might become more inclined to obtain the means to defend themselves from random victimization?
Yeah. This story, and many others like it, sink to the bottom of the "news" world while lesser crimes that make second amendment rights look bad rise to the top headlines.

They want to inspire fear, not self determination.
 

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Random? Hmmm.. you mean "Kween Spade", an associate of Massey's?

I have a feeling when the rest of the facts come out, it will not be "random" at all- my guess is she ripped off the drug dealers for drugs or money or plotted something against them, perha[ps ratting them out to the cops or selling them out to another gang.

And the other woman- you are going to kidnap someone in order to murder another party in front of them for what? To inpress them? There are obviously some motivations here.

One psychotic lone killer sociopath, this swtory is possible (not likely, but possible).
Two or more members of a gang killking somebody, it ain't "random" unless they were innocent bystanders caught in the line of fire.

My guess is Kween Spade collatweralized a sum of drugs or money with her body and came up short whan it was time to pay the piper.

Everything is "random" until you figure it out, from rain to the movement of the stars.

Occasionally something really IS random, like the victim of a gang initiation ritual who is in the wrong place at the wrong time. But a girl that knew the kiler, was involved with drugs, and was murdered by his drug gang? Not so random I think- that smells like more than coincidental LACK of "randomness".

Pretty rough way to go though. She's still somebody's daughter, that's gotta be hard on the family.
I don't see any "rehabilittion" for the likes of Massey or his amigo.
 

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Captain Will said:
Random? Hmmm.. you mean "Kween Spade", an associate of Massey's?

I have a feeling when the rest of the facts come out, it will not be "random" at all- my guess is she ripped off the drug dealers for drugs or money or plotted something against them, perha[ps ratting them out to the cops or selling them out to another gang.

And the other woman- you are going to kidnap someone in order to murder another party in front of them for what? To inpress them? There are obviously some motivations here.

One psychotic lone killer sociopath, this swtory is possible (not likely, but possible).
Two or more members of a gang killking somebody, it ain't "random" unless they were innocent bystanders caught in the line of fire.

My guess is Kween Spade collatweralized a sum of drugs or money with her body and came up short whan it was time to pay the piper.

Everything is "random" until you figure it out, from rain to the movement of the stars.

Occasionally something really IS random, like the victim of a gang initiation ritual who is in the wrong place at the wrong time. But a girl that knew the kiler, was involved with drugs, and was murdered by his drug gang? Not so random I think- that smells like more than coincidental LACK of "randomness".

Pretty rough way to go though. She's still somebody's daughter, that's gotta be hard on the family.
I don't see any "rehabilittion" for the likes of Massey or his amigo.
Well, yes, she was clearly caught up with the wrong crowd and the article said that. Surely, her lifestyle put her in the situation, but I'm not sure she directly crossed someone to have these thugs use her. I even know some young impressionable girls on LI who think it's cool to hang out with gang members or hit certain latin dance clubs associated with that lifestyle , and they're just incredibly stupid and don't see the potential danger in it.

As far as the "randomness" I think she was used as an example, and this was more about coercing the other woman, rather than killing her. No one deserves to die like that.

Now the animals who could actually stomach to do that to another human being (and just to set an example) deserve a date with the reaper.
 

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Will, if your point was that teenage girls can be stupid, you are 100% correct. If you are insinuating that people should not be outraged over incidents like this because of that, then I think you're100% wrong.
 

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Agreed the guys who did this need to be punished,I was just saying I did not buy the "innocent random sweet girl" BS.

If your daughter is doing drugs, hanging out with drug dealers, and has a big tramp stamp acreooss her back that says "Kween Spade" that right there should be a tip off some stuff is likely to happen.

Yes she could be hanging out with wannabe long island strip mall sweetie drug dealers who sell dime bags and run around with their pants falling off and drive hondas with fart can exhausts, OR she could be hanging out with the kind of monsters who will cut someone up into tiny pieces.

She did not deserve to die- and it sounds like she died horribly. Part of the responsibility for this tragic end does lie with her however.

Coercing the other woman- OK great theory, but you havre to coerce someone into or out of AN ACT. If you grab up a bank teller to coerce you to help you rob the bank, that's not random. Grabbing somebody truly at random would be a total crapshoot as far as even if they could do what you want- makes zero sense to me
 

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Well, the police statement clearly says that the choice of victim was "random"... I imagine they have some reason to print that.

She might have been hanging out at less than reputable clubs, flirting with gang members, whatever; but assuming that she is some sort of player who brought this upon herself by ripping off the gang or stealing drugs without any evidence whatsoever is pretty dumb.

I'm a little surprised, normally you're the one who chides the rest of us for jumping to unfounded conclusions.
 

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Lousy Shot
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Captain Will said:
Random? Hmmm.. you mean "Kween Spade", an associate of Massey's. ? ...
So, I guess after considering what this poor girl must have gone through during the last hours of her young life, you figure she musta had it coming.

Oh but you did include some qualifying remarks so at least there's that.
 

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I want to personally rip the innards out of the animals who did this (while they are alive of course).
 

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I didn't say shew had itr coming, but if it were random, WTF is the motive? To scare some other woman? Then why not kill someone they wanted gone instead of "random" girl? Or someone the other woman cared about?

a) She knew Massey

b) Cops can't tell if she had a job

c) Cops can't figure out where she was living

Speaking of jumping to premature conclusions, isn't it a bit early to call it "Random" when she knew her killer and you don't even know the most basic things about her life like where she lives or her occupation?

Without knowing that, how can you rule out a motive and jump to "random"?

Guys in criminal organizations kill people because they are a threat to them or the organization i.e. rival gang members, witnesses, cops, etc.

Killing somebody in front of a third party just to show you can kill somebody is kinda pointless- to me, it would make a LOT more sense if some other facts come to light., Let's just say for example that when they find out where she was living, it's with some hustler that screwed Massey over.
NOW you have MOTIVE, and also it becomes anything but "random"

Does that explain the point I am trying to make? They can't identify a motive yet, but that does not make it random. Of course if you are a reporter, rndom is a lot more exciting and sensational.

If it were pimply 19YO named Javier Gonzales, would you have the same reaction? And would you just assume it was random, given the lack of information? I am going to jump to a conclusion here and guess NO and NO.

NOBODY kills without a motive, even serial killers are motivated psychologically to kill. The motive presented here seems (to me) to be really unlikely- I think something else might come up. The cops might even be hushing up the real motivew for anothger reason, like she got caught up in an oingoing investigation using ondercovers- those sorts of things do happen. Killing just for giggles, not so often.
 

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What are you trying to prove? That the police report misused the word 'random'?

They did find a motive. The motive was that they wanted to make money by pressing a girl into service as a prostitute. Yes, they may have found her through a mutual acquaintance, but that does not mean that they had some valid reason for torturing and murdering one girl and attempting to enslave the other.
 

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Lousy Shot
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Captain Will said:
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Speaking of jumping to premature conclusions, isn't it a bit early to call it "Random" when she knew her killer and you don't even know the most basic things about her life like where she lives or her occupation?

Without knowing that, how can you rule out a motive and jump to "random"?
I "jumped to the conclusion" because the article actually says:
Chief Cole said there was no evidence that Miss Saunders was involved in criminal activity.

He said: 'Our information right now leads us to believe she was a random choice, as sad as that is.

'She had relationships within these loosely associated people, and I think that she was a victim of opportunity.'
The article says what the police believe their motives were. You have your own theories based on nothing I see in the article.
Captain Will said:
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Guys in criminal organizations kill people because they are a threat to them or the organization i.e. rival gang members, witnesses, cops, etc.

Killing somebody in front of a third party just to show you can kill somebody is kinda pointless- to me, it would make a LOT more sense if some other facts come to light., Let's just say for example that when they find out where she was living, it's with some hustler that screwed Massey over.
NOW you have MOTIVE, and also it becomes anything but "random"

Does that explain the point I am trying to make? They can't identify a motive yet, but that does not make it random. Of course if you are a reporter, rndom is a lot more exciting and sensational.

If it were pimply 19YO named Javier Gonzales, would you have the same reaction? And would you just assume it was random, given the lack of information? I am going to jump to a conclusion here and guess NO and NO.

NOBODY kills without a motive, even serial killers are motivated psychologically to kill. The motive presented here seems (to me) to be really unlikely- I think something else might come up. The cops might even be hushing up the real motivew for anothger reason, like she got caught up in an oingoing investigation using ondercovers- those sorts of things do happen. Killing just for giggles, not so often.
 

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Wanted dead or alive!

LlGuy631 said:
I want to personally rip the innards out of the animals who did this (while they are alive of course).
 

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She was so beautiful. Maybe I should move to Oklahoma.

Destro said:
Horrific. Truly appalling. Poor girl apparently ran with the wrong crowd. I have a friend in Oklahoma and she says there's a lot of latin gangs from south of the border there and turning out girls is a big thing. Also surprised Fox news or someone didn't pick up this story.

Poor girl. RIP.

 
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