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By Cam Edwards | Aug 26, 2021 9:30 AM ET

A few years ago, when the New York State Rifle & Pistol Association challenged a New York City gun control law restricting where licensed gun owners could travel with their firearms, the city defended their ordinance in court… until the Supreme Court accepted the case. Then the city (and state) stepped in to tweak the law in question in the hopes of rendering the case moot, and in April of 2020 the Supreme Court decided the case no longer had standing, though several justices vehemently disagreed, pointing out that New York had ample time to change the law but only did so when legal action threatened to set a nationwide precedent.
 

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As much as I am in favor of concealed carry, I cannot imagine 20% or even 10% of the people in Penn station during rush hour on any given day being armed.
The police I spoke to a few years back, were nervous about the armed National Guard members in the station as they were not adequately trained in crowd control or reaction to shots fired.
Their concern was valid i felt in that they might have panic fired in an active shooter situation.
Imagine that many untrained civilians all trying to protect themselves or their families.
there would have to be a real plan.
 

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As much as I am in favor of concealed carry, I cannot imagine 20% or even 10% of the people in Penn station during rush hour on any given day being armed.
The police I spoke to a few years back, were nervous about the armed National Guard members in the station as they were not adequately trained in crowd control or reaction to shots fired.
Their concern was valid i felt in that they might have panic fired in an active shooter situation.
Imagine that many untrained civilians all trying to protect themselves or their families.
there would have to be a real plan.
Urban citizens of other states with concealed carry don't seem to have a problem. No spontaneos wild west shootouts between suburban rail commuters in Philly, Pittsburgh, Atlanta etc. Don't buy the hype.
 

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As much as I am in favor of concealed carry, I cannot imagine 20% or even 10% of the people in Penn station during rush hour on any given day being armed.
The police I spoke to a few years back, were nervous about the armed National Guard members in the station as they were not adequately trained in crowd control or reaction to shots fired.
Their concern was valid i felt in that they might have panic fired in an active shooter situation.
Imagine that many untrained civilians all trying to protect themselves or their families.
there would have to be a real plan.
All of the doom and gloom predicted (citizens killing other citizens in road rage incidents, arguments turning into gun battles on the streets, etc.) prior to FL and other states going forward with concealed carry never materialized. They have been proven wrong in state after state as CCW has expanded in the U.S. What makes NYC so special?

Everyone that applies will still have to go through a criminal background investigation. Mental health records will be checked. In the book "More Guns, Less Crime" John Lott provides a detailed analysis of what ACTUALLY occurred as more and more states allowed for concealed carry. The result was less crime. There has not been a single study to support the claim that more guns in the hands of licensed individuals results in more crime. Even those looking to prove that came away with at most it resulted in no change.
 

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All of the doom and gloom predicted (citizens killing other citizens in road rage incidents, argumentsturning into gun battles on the streets, etc.) prior to FL and other states going forward with concealed carry never materialized. The have been proven wrong in state after state as CCW has expanded in the U.S. What makes NYC so special?

Everyone that applies will still have to go through a criminal background investigation. Mental health records will be checked. In the book "More Guns, Less Crime" John Lott provides a detailed analysis of what ACTUALLY occurred as more and more states allowed for concealed carry. The result was less crime. There has not been a single study to support the claim that more guns in the hands of licensed individuals results in more crime. Even those looking to prove that came away with at most it resulted in no change.
Regardless of the results of CCW in other areas, and they are very positive, no other area or city has the concentration of people like Penn and also Grand Central stations during rush hour and at most times. That is what I was specifically commenting about. This is by an order of 10x or more. Without some sort of advanced CCW training, an active shooter in that environment would result in many unintended shootings by people thinking they were helping by drawing their gun and shooting the wrong person or missing a target in a crowded area and hitting innocents.
just my opinion.
 

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Regardless of the results of CCW in other areas, and they are very positive, no other area or city has the concentration of people like Penn and also Grand Central stations during rush hour and at most times. That is what I was specifically commenting about. This is by an order of 10x or more. Without some sort of advanced CCW training, an active shooter in that environment would result in many unintended shootings by people thinking they were helping by drawing their gun and shooting the wrong person or missing a target in a crowded area and hitting innocents.
just my opinion.
Have you been to New Orleans during Mardi Gras? Your right to an effective means of self-defense isn't based on the concentration of people in a given area. If that were the case you couldn't carry in a crowded elevator. You can always create imaginary, what if scenarios in an attempt to justify the infringement of Constitutional rights but there is no EVIDENCE to justify your claim that NYC requires some special status that justifies denying the rights of law abiding citizens to defend themselves.

BTW, what advanced training do police officers working Penn Station receive?
 

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Spark25 your opinion and concerns are well received.

My concern is that the use of fringe scenarios continues to be the strongest argument the anti 2A folks use time and time again.

I truly believe that an individual in Penn Station with a CCW will consider several factors before pulling out a gun:
-am I properly trained?
-am I acting in self defense?
-In a location full of police officers and densely populated will I achieve the intended purpose by using my firearm? (1) cross fire injuring others (2) police killing me because no one knows I am a good guy (3) am I in a position that a quick draw and one shot will end the active shooter scenario without the police mistakenly seeing me as the aggressor?

I guess my point is that situational based training is very important and personally I think that most individuals with a CCW would be unlikely to un holster at Penn Station. Additionally, generally speaking lawful gun owners will never pull a firearm unless absolutely necessary.

Also as a lawful gun owner it is really crazy that I can go to 7 Eleven on JERICHO Turpike in Nassau and hypothetically walk across the street to Dunkin Doughnuts and be in Queens and therefore also in violation of the permit restrictions.
 

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Let me just add that I'm not discounting your concerns having not consideration them. Tens of thousand of people pass through Penn Station on a daily basis. A prohibition on carrying through Penn Station means that a 30 minute transit through the station means an individual has to give up their 2nd Amendment right to carry for the rest of the day on the miniscule chance something goes down in the station. You also focus on the worst case "what if" scenario at the exclusion of the cases where a CCW holder might end an assault and minimal harm is done.

Again, the anti-2A crowd used these types of worst case "what if" scenarios to try to block the advance of CCW in other states. There isn't any evidence I'm aware of that substantiated the fears they attempted to generate. The news media rarely if ever reports on the lives that have been saved as a result of CCW.
 
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IMO, the major side effect is that people in NYC wont be so rude to each other. I know that I’ve turned into a pussy cat since I started daily CCW. It’s too much risk to get into a confrontation. YMMV.
 

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It all comes down to training whether you are a civilian or not.
I remember sitting in 1PP waiting to have a new gun added to my license. A kid who was next to me was doing the same, he opened his case and showed me a Berretta 92 and asked me how does this work? His father in law gave it to him because he felt he was too old to still use it. So much for training.
 

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As much as I am in favor of concealed carry, I cannot imagine 20% or even 10% of the people in Penn station during rush hour on any given day being armed.
The police I spoke to a few years back, were nervous about the armed National Guard members in the station as they were not adequately trained in crowd control or reaction to shots fired.
Their concern was valid i felt in that they might have panic fired in an active shooter situation.
Imagine that many untrained civilians all trying to protect themselves or their families.
there would have to be a real plan.
Probably a LOT more folks armed in Penn Station than you realize
 
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Hopefully at least half of them are not convicted felons or gang members.
 

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If the right to carry concealed is affirmed by the court it doesn’t mean that everyone will start packing. Yes, you’d probably see a increase in applications from people that have been waiting for the court to make a decision and then those who are made aware by the media that you can carry. Most will likely not care and continue to live life as before. As others have stated here, the majority of people that would legally carry would be very confrontational avert. As they will know the ramifications. Lastly as on poster said, people will be finally nicer to each other.
 

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Probably a LOT more folks armed in Penn Station than you realize
Mostly armed LE and Retired LEO carry concealed using the Railroad to commute. The MTA issued a card to active LE using the Railroad. If the SCOTUS rules New York’s Pistol License Scheme was unconstitutional. I would expect a huge outrage from Local politicians forcing new laws with no weapons signs at many localities and private businesses.
 

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Mostly armed LE and Retired LEO carry concealed using the Railroad to commute. The MTA issued a card to active LE using the Railroad. If the SCOTUS rules New York’s Pistol License Scheme was unconstitutional. I would expect a huge outrage from Local politicians forcing new laws with no weapons signs at many localities and private businesses.
And the challenges to those laws and/or regulations will continue. Meanwhile more and more individuals and corporations will vote with their feet and leave this state for issues that go beyond the 2nd Amendment.
 
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