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Bangkok rules. Now who has a can?
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I'm sure there is more to this.....

Lancaster County Man Tasered, Maced; Dies After Becoming Unresponsive

http://www.wgal.com/r/25659485/detail.html

POSTED: 9:27 pm EDT November 6, 2010
UPDATED: 4:56 pm EST November 7, 2010

LANCASTER COUNTY, Pa. -- A Lancaster County man died after being tased by police early Saturday morning.

State police said 61-year-old Robert Neill, Jr., died after he become unresponsive after he was tased twice and maced.

It happened around 4 a.m. Saturday at Neill's home on the 300 block of Marietta Avenue in the borough of Mount Joy.

Several police departments assisted including Mount Joy Borough Police Department, Susquehanna Regional Police Department and State Police from Ephrata.

According to police, Neill reported to them that he had been harassed by his neighbors. When officers arrived, they said Neill was combative and aggressive.

That is when officers tased and maced him.

Neill died on the way to the hospital.

The State Police Major Case Team is investigating.

An autopsy is scheduled for Monday.
 

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Cops really gotta tase a 61 year old guy twice and then mace him? I dunno about that but I wasn't there. I would like to think one tasing and/or macing woulda been sufficient to allow me and my partner  to subdue the guy if necessary.
 

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OC(no one uses MACE anymore) and TASERs are in the force continuum before going hands on with a subject. The truth is that more perps and cops are injured/killed when physical combat ensues instead of chemical munitions and electro-convulsive devices. Statistically, it's safer for all involved.

It's amazing the Monday morning QBing that cops get from those that never stepped toe to toe with someone wishing to do them harm. Beside the righteous second guessing it belies a complete lack of knowledge about the capabilities of human physiology when people to say someone is big/small/old/young/skinny/fat and thus they didn't "deserve" to get tased. The simple fact is that you can in no way shape or form glean the facts from a newspaper article with regards to what really happened.

I along with one other medic and three cops took the better part of 5 minutes to get a 19 year old 110 lb hispanic chick into cuffs. Ever square off with a violent, mentally ill 81 year old retired brick layer? Me and three cops did. The fought us like a twenty year old kid. I got a list as long as my arm of people I've engaged in wrestling matches with the goal of treating their problem be it drug OD, low blood sugar or mental illness.

Pick a label you could usually ascribe to one you'd assume wouldn't fight you, or wouldn't be capable of winning. Now add any combo of the following; alcohol, mental illness, illicit narcotic use, coke, weed, PCP, LSD, meth, pain killers, psych meds(or off their meds) and it's a dangerous combination. But we're supposed to take the ass kicking. We're supposed to eat the broken noses, and other assault type injuries because the endless self abuse this person's engaged in deserves to go unchecked.

Please...
 

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@sherm66.

Please note that I said I was not there, but noted it SOUNDS like it may have been excessive. Your point is taken, but at the same time if you tell us that no cop has ever used excessive force then "Please...." right back at ya.

Sometimes an individual situation may indeed be difficult to get under control, at other times, cops may abuse tasing because of the relative protection it offers them. Certtainly, if your culture is that tasing is lower on the continuum of force than laying hands on a suspect and at the same time you are less likely to get punched in the facre, there is not the natural deterrent (fear of injury) to mitigate a physical confrontation, just whip out the taser if somebody is unwilling to follow your verbal commands and shock the living snot out of them. Maybe a few times. And why not capsacin for good measure? Well, in case of the latter, they usually try to avoid it because then you have to handle a contaminated suspect, and it's very easy to get it on you, your uniform, your hands, the wheel of your patrol car- then wipe your eye hours later and it feels like somebody stuck a knife in it. No such physical penalty for use of a taser. Usually there is some administrative call to justify the use of the taser, but that varies as well.

Law enforcement is a tough task- but one that still requires accountability. Groups like "Copwatch" exist for a reason, and that's to challenge that accountability so that the public knows that they are not the victims of a police state.If you are going to use a taser or OC then you need to be held accountable for that decision and not use them indiscriminately. The advent of technologies like the dash cam really go a long way to helping everybody by providing an evidentiary record that did not exist before, and was often a narriative of several cops vs the account of some drunk fool.

Somewhere along that force contiinuum there is a point at which it becomes "to much, too soon". Luckily, they did not just shoot the guy, but less than lethal methods may lend themselves to be deployed for the sake or mere convenience rather than necessity where accountability or supervision is lacking.
 

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I have to agree with Sherm.

I have seen multiple times people tazed or OC Sprayed, as well as restraint by Law Enforcemet.

The worst was a 42 year old male, me, my partner 2 police officers and 5 firefighters COULD NOT RESTRAIN! When NYPD ESU showed up they tazed him (he laughed and pulled the barbs out) and was sprayed and tazed again. We ultimitely subduded him (were also caught in the residual cloud of pepper spray and had to be treated). There are times where it is VERY difficulkt to restrain.

I have also had a 91 year old man pull a 1911 on us (2 medics a LT and 2 NYPD officers) to restrain and disarm him. Instead of shooting him he was tackled by all of us and taken to the hospital.

Afterwards, Paramedics monitor Airway Breathing Circulation, cardiac monitoring etc. Death is usually because of underlying cause that is complicated by the taze or OC spray (cardiac coindition or asthma)

I'll wait before I decide if they are wrong or right. There are cases of bad judgement.
 

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Captain Will said:
@sherm66.

Please note that I said I was not there, but noted it SOUNDS like it may have been excessive. Your point is taken, but at the same time if you tell us that no cop has ever used excessive force then "Please...." right back at ya.


Who, on God's green earth would say no cop has ever done something excessive/brutal/abusive? That'd be ig'nant. I've seen plenty of PD follies in my 20 years in EMS. Nowhere did I say cops are without fault or misdeeds. I'm unsure where you inferred that. It's kinda sad that unless one couches their argument with caveats and apologies that you get to jump to the conclusion that I'm completely pro cop or ignorant of the fact that cops do wrong too. To the contrary, I teach a class on Sudden In-Custody Death Syndrome to most of the new hires and supervisors at my job. There's plenty of good "what not to do" stuff on Youtube, in the newspaper, case law, court documents and media outlets that I use in my lectures where cops have done wrong. It's one of the best training tools we have.


Sometimes an individual situation may indeed be difficult to get under control, at other times, cops may abuse tasing because of the relative protection it offers them. Either way, totally appropriate when used in the right place in the force continuum. Police are perfectly withing their rights to protect themselves from assault and injury. Certtainly, if your culture is that tasing is lower on the continuum of forceNot culteure, but rules and regs, and the force continuum dictate where the TASER is applied than laying hands on a suspect and at the same time you are less likely to get punched in the facre, there is not the natural deterrent (fear of injury) to mitigate a physical confrontation,This argument is kind of akin to the "Who's morally superior? The woman lying dead and raped in the alley or the living woman who defended herself with a firearm?" poster I saw recently. Who's morally superior? The cop getting his ass kicked because he went hands on with somone stronger than him or the cop controlling a subject with the push of a button, thus saving himself an ass kicking? just whip out the taser if somebody is unwilling to follow your verbal commands and shock the living snot out of them.In some states the TASER is used before OC when a subject fails to comply with the officer's verbal commands. The officer doesn't even have to be in fear of being assaulted. Maybe a few times. And why not capsacin for good measure? Well, in case of the latter, they usually try to avoid it because then you have to handle a contaminated suspect, and it's very easy to get it on you, your uniform, your hands, the wheel of your patrol car- then wipe your eye hours later and it feels like somebody stuck a knife in it. No such physical penalty for use of a taser. Usually there is some administrative call to justify the use of the taser, but that varies as well. You're using the slippery slope argument, that it's laziness and moral decay that begets cops going all willy nilly with the TASER and zapping everyone they run across. It's a silly argument as the stats don't bear it out. Do shithead cops make the news when they taze a granny, or a 10 year old kid? Sure. But it ain't the norm

Law enforcement is a tough task- but one that still requires accountability. Groups like "Copwatch" exist for a reason, and that's to challenge that accountability so that the public knows that they are not the victims of a police state. I've done some traveling. The US is the last place I'd consider a "police state." And the Bradys, Handgun Control Inc, the VPC and Ceasefire Inc exist to keep you deadly gun owners in check? I'll lump them in with Copwatch any day. Copwatch is far from impartial and does just what any anti gun zealot would do to gun owners only they do to cops. And who needs them anyways. The newspapers and TV do a fine job of ripping the police regardless of the facts. But nice try.If you are going to use a taser or OC then you need to be held accountable for that decision and not use them indiscriminately.Again, most don't. A few do and give the rest a bad name. The advent of technologies like the dash cam really go a long way to helping everybody by providing an evidentiary record that did not exist before, and was often a narriative of several cops vs the account of some drunk fool.Hey! Dig it! Something we agree on. I'm a fan of the cams in TASERs too.

Somewhere along that force contiinuum there is a point at which it becomes "to much, too soon". Luckily, they did not just shoot the guy, but less than lethal methods may lend themselves to be deployed for the sake or mere convenience rather than necessity where accountability or supervision is lacking.
The force continuum is the force continuum. There was no "luck" involved with the guy getting tased vs not getting shot. It was most likely an officer seeing that deadly physical force wasn't justified and appropriately using the TASER. The "too much, too soon" is the choice of the officer. Recruits sit in academy class for 6-8 months with field training. They're rigorously tested, quizzed, eval'd and held to standards. A majority do the right thing. I'd posit that what you perceive as "too much, too soon" may in some instances be the correct response and win the fight. Until one has to make these decision in mere split seconds it seems easy to monday morning QB them and pick them apart unfairly after the incident.

Lastly, I dig internet back and forth. Don't take any of this too seriously, as I don't. I met you at the First Aid class the other day. If you were there then I know you are a good person willing to do for others. That puts you miles ahead of most.
 

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Uh, I think you musta met the OTHER Will at the first aid class the other day, wasn't me.

Like I said before, obviously I wasn't at the scene. From my own experience with a few cops I know some (not necessarily all) have a bit of an authority complex and would be more than happy to tase a guy in his own home that was telling them to piss off, where in the same situation if they backed off a bit the guy would get over the agression hump and start to calm down on his own if given a little deference.

I too am generally pro-cop, and clearly if the guy is rushing you with a baseball bat then tasing him is the better option. Where the only information given is the term "combative" we are left to draw our own conclusions. I tend to think that if the guy rushred them with a baseball bat, the cops would have stated so, rather than the somewhat vague descriptor of "combative". If he said "Get the hell outtta my house NOW you worthless donkeys!" and the cops then decided he needed a little attitide adjustment then that is an entirely different ball of wax. But certainly anything is speculative here because there is really very little presented as fact in the report. But an investigation of the actions of cops by cops and supervised by cops as the sole fact-finding measure may not be the fairest thing- The assertion that a level of force that resulted in a man's death in his own home at the hands of police was justified because he was "combative" does not really sit well with me, if he had beaten two cops with the Louisville Slugger I'd be much more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. But for all we know, the guy coulda been coked outta his mind and THAT might have resulted in his death, there's not enough information in the article to make a decent case either way. My only statement was that in lieu of any other facts than those stated, tasing the guy multiple times with capsacin (you'be been there so you know what a beeeeeeeyotch that is) plus tasing him twice (never been there but even 220V has lit me up pretty good a few times) seems- note I wrote SEEMS like it may be excessive to me.

Yeah I read your story about the 110lb hispanic chick. I can also tell you that as a guy that weighs about double that if I got hosed with OC then all I'd be doing is either flailing or rolling on the ground grabbing my face. Pretty sure I would not be much of a threat immediately after taking 20KV either. I know some people have a high tolerance to whatever, but the use of both SEEMS unnecessary to me except in very very rare circumstances. This could have been one of those, or it could have been a case of indiscriminate use of "non deadly" weapons by cops that killed a man.

Maybe there will be a follow up article.
I did find this: http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/309912
and this: http://articles.lancasteronline.com/local/4/309558

And although I an NOT a medic, I don't see a correlation between "combative" behavior and Agent Orange.

Regards.,
 

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reading the follow up story (quiet guy etc- called because his neighbors were making noise) it is possible the guy was having a stroke and or mental status changes that caused him to be aggressive and not follow commands.
I am pretty sure the Police didn't show up and say "hey lets mace and taze the crap out of this guy til he dies"

It is an unfortunate series of events that led to this death. I think the officers will be remediated and no charges filed
 

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The Taser is a good tool.Proper training proper shot placement has excellent results.I was tased as part of the training and is considered at the very bottom of the use of force chart,civilians feel mace and Tasers are lethal and have had to explain the use of force which is authorized.When you have a 10-37 EDP, be it young or old remember they have the ability to disarm you if they are combative.Police are always going to be held accountable if a subject dies in the use of force.The Grand Jury clears you but you get sued by the family in a civil suit.It's a blood bath out there guy's!
 

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The Lancastewr cops were issued the Tasers last march. Each gets a four hour training course and tased themselves as part of the training regimen. According to police at time of issue "It takes all the fight immediately out of someone." scaeffer said. "And it doesn't result on injury, which is the goal. No one gets hurt".

The moral of this story is if you stress an organism enough you can kill it with means that aren't obviously lethal. According to the reports thery tased the guy, and at some point later he got uppity once more so they tased him again. Now, if you had to tase a guy because he became combative, wouldn't you then place him in physical restraint i.e. handcuffs? If I tased a dude, I'd have him wrapped up like a fricken' mummy by the time his head cleared, because common sense would dictate that if you tase somebody, they might be pissed off about getting tased, and just because you have a taser inb your hand does not mean his anger is not going to override his logic.

And no, I don't think the cops decided to tase and mace the guy for gun until he died either. But they well may have made the mistake of assuming that tasing and capsacin don't or can't result in injury or death. Hopefully some lessons will be learned out of this.

They did manage to set a homeless guy on fire when they tased him while he was huffing a spray can as well. Still the tasers are a lot safer than shooting somebody, the fact that they are not avsailable to us as HD tools is unfortunate IMO. the only logic that would support this (if any) is indiscriminate use, what I wrote above. But since you can buy a gun here with NO training, surely one would think a 4 hour training regimen for tasers would be sufficient?
 

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This is too much argument for so little details...

I dont know, having to tase and spray a 61 year old does sound excessive, but you never know. Not every 61 year old is frail and hunched over. My grandfather is in his seventies, and I still would put money on him over many guys my age.

That being said, excessive force does happen, but without being there we'll never know.
 
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