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Many guys get their clocks cleaned or even worse pretending to be these MMA fighters doing a rear naked choke.
That wasn’t remotely comparable to a rear naked choke or a choke where a garment is used to apply it. There is no way an effective choke could be done with his hand in that position without applying significant backwards pressure and at the same time using your body to prevent the individual from moving backwards. I’ve done thousands of chokes and they all require some counteracting force. On the ground two hands on the neck with the ground being the counteracting force. The same again a wall with the wall being the counteracting force. A rear naked choke one arm applying backwards or side pressure with the other arm applying forward or opposite side pressure. There are numerous ways to apply a choke but they all require counteracting forces working together.
 

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did anyone see the cash in the womans hand? My guess is she tried to stop her friend from assaulting the guy by saying here i have the money ill pay. But i clearly see the store owner try to get up and walk away, as the guy grabs his neck area as to prevent him from moving to safety. A younger man would have thrown punches, this man was old scared and clearly felt his life was in danger. Moral of this story....dont try to assault somebody in their place of business.
they feed their family with it, and will die defending that privilege. Sadly the young man thought wrong...and paid that price. I hope his friends took lesson, but more than likely they will show up one day with a handgun and a few punk ass ski masks. The old man has some time to think about how to design the new bullet proof checkout counter.
 

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did anyone see the cash in the womans hand? My guess is she tried to stop her friend from assaulting the guy by saying here i have the money ill pay. But i clearly see the store owner try to get up and walk away, as the guy grabs his neck area as to prevent him from moving to safety. A younger man would have thrown punches, this man was old scared and clearly felt his life was in danger. Moral of this story....dont try to assault somebody in their place of business.
they feed their family with it, and will die defending that privilege. Sadly the young man thought wrong...and paid that price. I hope his friends took lesson, but more than likely they will show up one day with a handgun and a few punk ass ski masks. The old man has some time to think about how to design the new bullet proof checkout counter.
Very little of what you said is going to matter in a case regarding justified use of deadly force. The only things that matter are those establishing the reasonableness standard for using deadly force. Is shoving, pushing and grabbing justification for using deadly force? Let’s put aside the choke issue because that is total nonsense. What happened during that minute of confrontation that “reasonably” lead the bodega owner to believe his life was in danger or he was going to receive some crippling injury? And when you’re contemplating that focus on the word reasonable.
 

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The Bodega worker was stabbed three times by the dead man's girlfriend. Bragg is a disgrace to his office and is being pressured from all sides to admit this was a massive mistake to charge him with murder 2. The right to self-defense shouldn't be different based on zip code, but here we are. A man comes in to beat an elderly worker at the command of his girlfriend, and he ends up dead. The girlfriend who stabbed the worker isn't being charged at all. The city doesn't just put a light finger on the scale of justice it slams a fist on whatever side fits them best. IMHO this was completely justified because I view any assault on another as a proper cause of deadly force. Any smack, punch, or kick can and has in history become far worse. It shouldn't be on the victim to judge whether or not an assailant has beaten them enough or continued the assault long enough to be considered reasonable. Once you cross the physical line with another person deadly force is always a possibility. I get that isn't how the laws are written, but try to get 12 people to agree that this was murder, and you'll never get it done.
 

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its clear cut self defense as the bodega owner was on the ground and forced up by the attacker. When the owner was pushed so that his back was to the attacker, he had reasonable concern for a life threatening attack. Anyone who cannot understand how this is self defense misses the basic issue; the attacker has the owner pinned in a vulnerable place and has the owner in a compromised position such that imminent fear for his life justified stabbing the attacker.
if you cannot see this, then you are probably a liberal who cannot see criminals doing any wrong.
 

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its clear cut self defense as the bodega owner was on the ground and forced up by the attacker. When the owner was pushed so that his back was to the attacker, he had reasonable concern for a life threatening attack. Anyone who cannot understand how this is self defense misses the basic issue; the attacker has the owner pinned in a vulnerable place and has the owner in a compromised position such that imminent fear for his life justified stabbing the attacker.
if you cannot see this, then you are probably a liberal who cannot see criminals doing any wrong.
Please go back through the tread and point out one post that conveys the idea that this wasn't self-defense. Let's put that strawman argument aside.

The issue being discussed is whether anything in the video that was posted demonstrates a deadly force response was justified. We don't have the benefit of sound in this video. That said pushing and shoving someone is NOT going to raise the level of justification to make using deadly force in response justified. The claimed "choke" never happened. The individual stabbed did not display a weapon, at least not one seen in the video.

Now let's separate the issue of fear. In any self-defense situation there is going to be some level of fear. Someone pushes you on the street and yells obscenities at you. In that situation a certain level of fear or anxiety is going to be induced. That person then approaches you and continues to yell and push you threatening to "kick your ass". Does that situation justify pulling out a gun/knife and shooting/stabbing the person?

There is no 100% clear cut answer to that but in most cases you can only raise your level of force to the level being used against you. Age, size, strength, training, health and other factors play a part but the use of deadly force has to be based on a "reasonable fear" that deadly force or force sufficient to cause serious bodily harm is going to be used against you. Extreme example: If an unarmed 80 year old, 5'6", 130 lbs senior citizen pushes a 30 year old 6'2", 220 lbs body builder and the body build shoots the senior he is going to have a hard time convincing the prosecutor or jury the use of deadly force was reasonable. Take that situation and start adjusting the parameters. At some point you may get to a place where deadly force used by the person attacked is justified.

Those trying to paint this bodega worker as some frail old man need to go back and watch the way he wielded that knife. This was no frail, crippled old man.

Beyond that don't take this discussion as defending the actions of the individual that was stabbed. That is NOT the point of this discussion. The point is there have to been some very special set of circumstances to justify using a weapon against an unarmed individual. Don't believe me? Ask the police officers that are put through the wringer for shooting an unarmed suspect.
 

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Please go back through the tread and point out one post that conveys the idea that this wasn't self-defense. Let's put that strawman argument aside.

The issue being discussed is whether anything in the video that was posted demonstrates a deadly force response was justified. We don't have the benefit of sound in this video. That said pushing and shoving someone is NOT going to raise the level of justification to make using deadly force in response justified. The claimed "choke" never happened. The individual stabbed did not display a weapon, at least not one seen in the video.

Now let's separate the issue of fear. In any self-defense situation there is going to be some level of fear. Someone pushes you on the street and yells obscenities at you. In that situation a certain level of fear or anxiety is going to be induced. That person then approaches you and continues to yell and push you threatening to "kick your ass". Does that situation justify pulling out a gun/knife and shooting/stabbing the person?

There is no 100% clear cut answer to that but in most cases you can only raise your level of force to the level being used against you. Age, size, strength, training, health and other factors play a part but the use of deadly force has to be based on a "reasonable fear" that deadly force or force sufficient to cause serious bodily harm is going to be used against you. Extreme example: If an unarmed 80 year old, 5'6", 130 lbs senior citizen pushes a 30 year old 6'2", 220 lbs body builder and the body build shoots the senior he is going to have a hard time convincing the prosecutor or jury the use of deadly force was reasonable. Take that situation and start adjusting the parameters. At some point you may get to a place where deadly force used by the person attacked is justified.

Those trying to paint this bodega worker as some frail old man need to go back and watch the way he wielded that knife. This was no frail, crippled old man.

Beyond that don't take this discussion as defending the actions of the individual that was stabbed. That is NOT the point of this discussion. The point is there have to been some very special set of circumstances to justify using a weapon against an unarmed individual. Don't believe me? Ask the police officers that are put through the wringer for shooting an unarmed suspect.
The Mayor who is known for being hypersensitive when it comes to blacks comes out in defense of the Bodega employee, proved this was not murder but self defense!
 

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The Mayor who is known for being hypersensitive when it comes to blacks comes out in defense of the Bodega employee, proved this was not murder but self defense!
The mayor is a left wing politician who will do whatever he thinks is political expedient. I don't care about the public perception or media portrayal. Beyond that my issue is limited to what is seen in the video. The prosecutor was privy to all the evidence. I don't have a problem with his decision not to prosecute based on all the evidence. But no one has been able to show me anything in that video that justifies the use of deadly force. If you get yelled at, pushed and shoved on the street and respond by stabbing or shooting someone, absent some serious extenuating circumstances, expect to spend a long time in prison.
 

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The mayor is a left wing politician who will do whatever he thinks is political expedient. I don't care about the public perception or media portrayal. Beyond that my issue is limited to what is seen in the video. The prosecutor was privy to all the evidence. I don't have a problem with his decision not to prosecute based on all the evidence. But no one has been able to show me anything in that video that justifies the use of deadly force. If you get yelled at, pushed and shoved on the street and respond by stabbing or shooting someone, absent some serious extenuating circumstances, expect to spend a long time in prison.
If that was you, in the same scenario. The outcome would be just another victim of violence.
Getting yelled at on a public street, does not rise to the level of DPF. You have a right to defend yourself. The situation of an aggressive, violent subject that enters the counter area to attack you is the reason the Bodega worker responded with a weapon. Another video surfaced from a robbery, the victim was behind the counter. One of the criminals decided to leap over the counter, the victim stuck the knife in the neck, immobilized the criminal and dragged him out. It was definitely brutal, but not murder. The bodega victim was placed in fear of his life and was justified under Article 35. The DA claimed to have not seen the video. When he watched the video he dropped the charges.
 

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If that was you, in the same scenario. The outcome would be just another victim of violence.
Getting yelled at on a public street, does not rise to the level of DPF. You have a right to defend yourself. The situation of an aggressive, violent subject that enters the counter area to attack you is the reason the Bodega worker responded with a weapon. Another video surfaced from a robbery, the victim was behind the counter. One of the criminals decided to leap over the counter, the victim stuck the knife in the neck, immobilized the criminal and dragged him out. It was definitely brutal, but not murder. The bodega victim was placed in fear of his life and was justified under Article 35. The DA claimed to have not seen the video. When he watched the video he dropped the charges.
This scenarios can go in a 1001 different directions depending on the specifics of the scenario but in most situations that I'm aware of where and armed individual shoots or stabs and unarmed individual the armed individual goes to prison unless there are some very extenuating circumstances.

Go back and look at the video. Does the bodega worker's response appear to be that of a frail, old man? He turns, with his left arm he manages to hold the black guy back, escape the grab of his right wrist, come over the top and stab him in the neck. Beyond that was he alone in the store with no one else there to help if things went south? Did you see the attacker do anything more than yell, push, grab and shove him?

BTW, the other scenario you described is a store robbery not a personal conflict between to individuals. Two very different situations.

What was the justification under article 35? There is no indication in the video that the individual stabbed was there to commit a burglary.
 

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This scenarios can go in a 1001 different directions depending on the specifics of the scenario but in most situations that I'm aware of where and armed individual shoots or stabs and unarmed individual the armed individual goes to prison unless there are some very extenuating circumstances.

Go back and look at the video. Does the bodega worker's response appear to be that of a frail, old man? He turns, with his left arm he manages to hold the black guy back, escape the grab of his right wrist, come over the top and stab him in the neck. Beyond that was he alone in the store with no one else there to help if things went south? Did you see the attacker do anything more than yell, push, grab and shove him?

BTW, the other scenario you described is a store robbery not a personal conflict between to individuals. Two very different situations.

What was the justification under article 35? There is no indication in the video that the individual stabbed was there to commit a burglary.
Have you studied any use of force curriculum in New York for Police or Peace Officers.
The victim was attacked and responded with the reasonable force necessary.
 

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Have you studied any use of force curriculum in New York for Police or Peace Officers.
The victim was attacked and responded with the reasonable force necessary.
I've studied use of force standards (penal law) from all over the country. I'm familiar with the force continuum as taught in many police academies.

The victim was attacked. That statement means next to nothing as far as determining the level of force that can be used in response. There are specific criteria to go up the force continuum ladder. Typically, you are limited to using an equal level of force or something slightly higher. The attacker in this instance did not have a weapon (knife, gun, blunt force, etc.). There is nothing in the video (yelling, pushing, shoving) that could be interpreted as the application of lethal force or force sufficient to cause serious bodily injury. It doesn't matter if the bodega worker was a nice guy, honest and hardworking individual and the black guy was a repeat offender. Being a nice guy doesn't give you the option jumping up the force continuum ladder to use lethal force because someone yells, pushes and shoves you.

Again, shooting or stabbing someone because they yelled, pushed and shoved you is in most cases going to result in a long prison sentence for the individual that used lethal force in response to being pushed and shoved.
 

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When you are pushed to the ground, then forcibly pull up from the ground, then pushed forward so that your back is to the aggressor, it constitutes a fear for your life, I don’t know how you can say that the store owner wasn’t justified in seizing the knife and turning around to face the aggressor.

moreover, if you are right in NY, then it’s a major reason why stand your ground laws and castle doctrine should be the law in every state. If you push me several times like that, I’d be fearful for my life.
 

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When you are pushed to the ground, then forcibly pull up from the ground, then pushed forward so that your back is to the aggressor, it constitutes a fear for your life, I don’t know how you can say that the store owner wasn’t justified in seizing the knife and turning around to face the aggressor.

moreover, if you are right in NY, then it’s a major reason why stand your ground laws and castle doctrine should be the law in every state. If you push me several times like that, I’d be fearful for my life.
First, the bodega worker wasn't pushed to the ground. He was pushed back onto the chair he had been sitting in. Second, he didn't just grab the knife and turn to face the aggressor, he turn with the intention of stab him. Third, this has nothing to do with stand your ground laws and everything to do with escalation of force. Yelling, pushing and shoving does not justify pulling out a knife or gun to stab or shoot someone. Stand your ground laws are related to whether or not you have a duty to retreat. They do not justify raising the level of response to a physical altercation from physical force to deadly physical force.

If pushing you several times puts you in fear for your life you've lived a shelter life. There may be circumstances where there is a significant disparage in size/strength but in most cases being pushed is not a reasonable justification for responding with deadly force.
 

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First, the bodega worker wasn't pushed to the ground. He was pushed back onto the chair he had been sitting in. Second, he didn't just grab the knife and turn to face the aggressor, he turn with the intention of stab him. Third, this has nothing to do with stand your ground laws and everything to do with escalation of force. Yelling, pushing and shoving does not justify pulling out a knife or gun to stab or shoot someone. Stand your ground laws are related to whether or not you have a duty to retreat. They do not justify raising the level of response to a physical altercation from physical force to deadly physical force.

If pushing you several times puts you in fear for your life you've lived a shelter life. There may be circumstances where there is a significant disparage in size/strength but in most cases being pushed is not a reasonable justification for responding with deadly force.
He’s not sitting in jail because the video was enough proof that a reasonable person would use the most effective tool they can use to protect their life.
I know you are adamant this was murder. Not everyone is trained in martial arts and can take down an aggressive attacker without a weapon.
It was clear self defense and not murder.
 

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He’s not sitting in jail because the video was enough proof that a reasonable person would use the most effective tool they can use to protect their life.
I know you are adamant this was murder. Not everyone is trained in martial arts and can take down an aggressive attacker without a weapon.
It was clear self defense and not murder.
As stated in the other thread, the video was NOT the evidence that cleared him. He was initially arrested based on the video. Supplemental evidence beyond the video was the reason the charges were dropped.

Also, I am NOT "adamant this was murder". I'm adamant that nothing in the video showed justification for use of deadly force. Those are two very different issues you don't seem capable of acknowledging. Yelling, pushing and shoving alone in the vast majority of situations does not justify the use of deadly force in response.
 

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So what is justified? Do you think it’s only justified for the victim to wait for the split second before being stabbed, shot, maimed, or killed before defending himself? you are setting a standard so impossible for any human being to adhere to. I guess this is what libtards mean by common sense laws?
 

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So what is justified? Do you think it’s only justified for the victim to wait for the split second before being stabbed, shot, maimed, or killed before defending himself? you are setting a standard so impossible for any human being to adhere to. I guess this is what libtards mean by common sense laws?
The legal standard is a reasonable fear that deadly force is about to be used against you. In the vast majority of cases that means a weapon (gun, knife, burgeoning object) is being used or in isolated cases there is a significant disparage in size/strength. There was no weapon involved so that leaves a significant disparage in size/strength. I don't see that significant disparage and if you watch the way the bodega worker wielded the knife I wouldn't describe it as the actions of a feeble old man.
 

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The legal standard is a reasonable fear that deadly force is about to be used against you. In the vast majority of cases that means a weapon (gun, knife, burgeoning object) is being used or in isolated cases there is a significant disparage in size/strength. There was no weapon involved so that leaves a significant disparage in size/strength. I don't see that significant disparage and if you watch the way the bodega worker wielded the knife I wouldn't describe it as the actions of a feeble old man.
He acted in self defense, he was cleared because he was in reasonable fear for his life. He stabbed a violent individual. Wow! Look how he handled that knife being a feeble little old man!
 

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He acted in self defense, he was cleared because he was in reasonable fear for his life. He stabbed a violent individual. Wow! Look how he handled that knife being a feeble little old man!
No strawman arguments. No one every claimed it wasn't a matter of self-defense. The issue is not the justified use of force. The issue is the justified use of deadly force.

Yes, look at the way he wielded the knife. In this small area he has able to quickly grab the knife, break free of the so-called choke hold, turn and repeatedly stab this individual multiple times while this much young and stronger individual was attempting to avoid the attack. His attack was very fast and very brutal.

I don't say any of this to justify what the dead individual was doing but I know a lot about blade/counterblade self-defense, the justification for using deadly force and analyzing deadly force encounters. This bodega worker is very fortunate he had the politics (mayor) on his side because if you stab an unarmed individual with a knife and kill them in most cases you're going to be spending a long time in prison. If you don't believe me check the case law.
 
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