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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Not work safe and not for kids. I say it's self defense, but this illustrates the abetting of criminals by our prosecutors and our political engine in this state.

The worker (in the green striped shirt and black cap glasses and beard) is accosted and assaulted by the "customer" (in the white shirt). In the video is also the arm of an individual who appears to motion to the "customer" to leave the worker alone or back away. The "customer" picks the worker up by the back of his neck and appear to drag him from behind the counter area where the worker grabs a knife and stabs the ATTACKER in the neck and chest. They fall mostly out of camera shot for a moment and the worker reappears holding the bloody knife and appears to tend to a wound on his arm. THE WORKER IS BEING HELD AT RIKERS ISLAND @250K BOND!!!!!

From the NY Post.
 

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Unfortunately I don't see any justification for the use of "deadly" physical force.
 

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Unfortunately I don't see any justification for the use of "deadly" physical force.
Can you elaborate? The worker did try to "retreat" and the "gentleman" wouldn't permit it. Are you saying this because the "gentleman" didn't have a weapon? Look at the "gentleman" and then look at the worker. The "gentleman" could have beaten the guy to death if he wanted to. Just curious why you wrote your post.
 

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Can you elaborate? The worker did try to "retreat" and the "gentleman" wouldn't permit it. Are you saying this because the "gentleman" didn't have a weapon? Look at the "gentleman" and then look at the worker. The "gentleman" could have beaten the guy to death if he wanted to. Just curious why you wrote your post.
The standard for justified use of deadly force is a reasonable belief that deadly force or force sufficent to cause serious bodily injury is about to be used against you. Based on what I can see it doesn't appear the individual that was stabbed had a weapon. He was larger but as far as I can tell he wasn't in the process of punching, kicking, choke, body slamming or applying any force other than shoving the man when that man grabbed the knife and stabbed him in the neck. It is VERY hard to win a case claiming deadly force was reasonable absent the other individual having a weapon or the attacker is in the process of commiting a beat down (Zimmerman/Martin).

On a side note, I've spend hundreds of hours examining deadly force attacks with members of LE, lawyers and subject matter experts. I'm not a lawyer but I've done a considerable amount of reading on the self-defense laws in each state, their standards for justified use of deadly force, various case law and taught the justified use of deadly force as a martial arts instructor (edged and contact weapons, Jiu-Jitsu). This video gives you one angle of reference and no sound. Another angle of reference or sound (the prep saying "I'm going to kill you MotherFer") could reveal something that would raise the level of reasonableness, which is why I said based on what I could "see" I don't see the justification for use of deadly force.
 
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If you look closely, at the video, at the 38 second mark, you will note that the older man is already bleeding (left arm), before they go off camera. How did that happen, if the younger one was not armed? Given that, plus the obvious differences in their ages and physical condition, I would have to say that the older man had reason to fear for his life and properly used deadly force.
Gary
 

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Looks like justice was served to me. The store owner was a victim. Only in liberal ass, left leaning states do we release all the prisoners and put victims in their empty cells. Any one wonder why so many people are fleeing NY?
 

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If you look closely, at the video, at the 38 second mark, you will note that the older man is already bleeding (left arm), before they go off camera. How did that happen, if the younger one was not armed? Given that, plus the obvious differences in their ages and physical condition, I would have to say that the older man had reason to fear for his life and properly used deadly force.
Gary
It looks to me that that blood is from the black guy who at that point had already been stabbed in the neck. The individual that stabbed him was holding him by the shirt high up on his neck with his left hand. The blood on his left arm appears to be from the neck of the individual stabbed.
 

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Looks like justice was served to me. The store owner was a victim. Only in liberal ass, left leaning states do we release all the prisoners and put victims in their empty cells. Any one wonder why so many people are fleeing NY?
Victim? Yes. Victim facing death or severe bodily injury? Again, given what I can see that is going to be a very high hurdle to get over, not just in NY but in most states. Again, there is a LOT that can't been seen and nothing can be heard. But if no weapon was seen there needs to be some very convincing evidence that something not seen or heard in the video was compelling enough to raise the level of reasonableness to a much higher level.
 

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Two ways this is self defense. One, the dead perp was in the middle of committing a burglary. He was in an area of a building he was not privileged to be in, AND, he was committing a crime therein (battery). At a minimum, its third degree burglary. See penal law 35.15(2) and 35.20 (3). You can use deadly force to stop a burglary.
Second, the grabbing of his shirt, likely preceded by threats of harm, in a setting where he had no means of retreat from the behind the counter area, means all the clerk needed was a subjective fear off being the recipient of imminent deadly force.

Prediction: no bill by the grand jury, or, the defense lawyer asks for a non-jury trial and the judge throws it out.
 

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Two ways this is self defense. One, the dead perp was in the middle of committing a burglary. He was in an area of a building he was not privileged to be in, AND, he was committing a crime therein (battery). At a minimum, its third degree burglary. See penal law 35.15(2) and 35.20 (3). You can use deadly force to stop a burglary.
Second, the grabbing of his shirt, likely preceded by threats of harm, in a setting where he had no means of retreat from the behind the counter area, means all the clerk needed was a subjective fear off being the recipient of imminent deadly force.

Prediction: no bill by the grand jury, or, the defense lawyer asks for a non-jury trial and the judge throws it out.
I didn't consider the burglary issue. Burglary requires proving the individual knowingly illegally entered or remained in the premises with the intent to commit a crime. From what I've read he came to the store over some earlier dispute that occurred with his girlfriend and the clerk regarding a purchase.
 

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I didn't consider the burglary issue. Burglary requires proving the individual knowingly illegally entered or remained in the premises with the intent to commit a crime. From what I've read he came to the store over some earlier dispute that occurred with his girlfriend and the clerk regarding a purchase.
But he went into the behind the counter area, possible opening a door to access. The register area is not for customers, and his entry was forceable and not privileged, done with intent to commit battery, and possibly unlawful confinement.
 

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But he went into the behind the counter area, possible opening a door to access. The register area is not for customers, and his entry was forceable and not privileged, done with intent to commit battery, and possibly unlawful confinement.
Understood but does that rise to the level of burglary? My understanding is burglary requires premeditation.
 

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Here is something that will work in the worker's favor"

"You have not paid for them, and if you cannot pay for them. You must give them back.” According to police, then the woman produced — pulled — a knife out of her handbag. There was a scuffle, and she ran out of the store to call on her boyfriend for help. Her boyfriend, now dead — this guy Simon — was on parole at the time for attacking a police officer. So, this is a person with a violent criminal history. State records also show that he had spent time in various New York prison facilities previously"

The fact that there was a knife involved in the earlier confrontation with the girlfriend would raise the level of concern that the confrontation with the angry boyfriend might get more violent.

Btw, in NO WAY am I defending the actions of the individual stabbed but if you're looking at this from just a self-defense standpoint, without the issue of burglary in the mix, employing deadly force when to that point only pushing and shoving were involved is asking to be locked up.
 

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It looks to me that that blood is from the black guy who at that point had already been stabbed in the neck. The individual that stabbed him was holding him by the shirt high up on his neck with his left hand. The blood on his left arm appears to be from the neck of the individual stabbed.
Paul:
Yes, on re-viewing, I do see that the source of the blood appears to be from the younger man but I don't see where the older one obtained the knife. Either way, I still feel, from what we can see, without any sound, that the younger man was not only attacking the older one but there was no fair contest, given the differences in age and physical structure of the two. I still feel the older man was in the right and feared for his life.
Gary
 

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The knife was on one of the shelves. According to one report they used it for opening boxes. As you mentioned there is a lot of info that can be missing. There is one view and no sound. What happened before the incident with the girlfriend could also play a part in the reasonableness argument. What I was trying to convey is pushing and shoving alone will not by itself get you to reasonable justification for using deadly force.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Update: They lowered his bail to 50K and he's home. Still, I feel the charges ought to be dropped. Even Mayor P-nut head is roasting the DA on this one, but Bragg da Scumbagg wants to make an example out of this guy for woke points. Don't know if the store's been reopened, but i may swing by tomorrow for a hero if they are.

 

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The Mayor is supporting the Bodega employee, he isn’t screaming this as a Blackman murdered. The video is clear self defense. Period. Someone comes in and puts you in a corner and threatens you. The victim was in fear of his life.
 

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Paul:
Yes, on re-viewing, I do see that the source of the blood appears to be from the younger man but I don't see where the older one obtained the knife. Either way, I still feel, from what we can see, without any sound, that the younger man was not only attacking the older one but there was no fair contest, given the differences in age and physical structure of the two. I still feel the older man was in the right and feared for his life.
Gary
The Mayor is supporting the Bodega employee, he isn’t screaming this as a Blackman murdered. The video is clear self defense. Period. Someone comes in and puts you in a corner and threatens you. The victim was in fear of his life.
The question the grand jury and trial jury will deal with (if it gets that far) will be whether his fear was a “reasonable” fear that deadly physical force was going to be used against him. The simple fact that someone grabs or shoves you isn’t a justified basis for using deadly force. The burglary issue might be plausible but you have to prove the individual unlawfully came or remained with the intent to commit a crime. He may have said something that could have raised the level of reasonableness that justified use of deadly force. My point is if someone pushes or shoves you on the street don’t think you can stab or shoot them and you’re in the clear. It will take a set of very unique circumstances to make that scenario justification for using deadly force.
 

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The DA could also present the case to the Grand Jury in a manner that will likely result in a no true bill (no indictment). This will take the responsibility for the “dismissal” away from him while appeasing those who are calling for the case to be dismissed prior to the Grand Jury presentation.

I am not advocating for this strategy because prosecutors should exercise prosecutorial discretion to seek Justice and not shift the responsibility to the Grand Jury. Also this strategy would backfire if the Grand Jury in fact indicts.
 
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