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I don't want to sound like I'm talking crap but, it never would have gotten to that point.

If the threat persisted, there may have been multiple gun shot victims.

"Take your lumps and call the cops later?" That's not an option when there's 4 - 6 of them. You're lucky if you're still alive after taking lumps (if you're not eating out of a straw afterwards)
 

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three words

Concealed Carry Permit
 

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Can't they just get the ISP address of the user who uploaded the video to Youtube? That would be a pretty good lead.

And if someone was following me and attempted to attack, and I couldn't run away, then if I was permitted to CCW I'd start firing when they attacked. If no CCW, I'd probably start slashing with a blade. Even if 4 against 2, a couple well placed cuts may help even the odds, just hope they don't also have guns.
 
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So these morons beat a guy then post the video on line.

The only chance the victim would have had to draw and fire would have been after the beat down was over.

At which point the video would have been evidence for the prosecution at his murder trial!

Sometimes life just is not fair.
 

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"Two men attacked by other men" ie, they were outnumbered. Cowards. Worthless punks....oops I'm sorry, I failed to take into account how tough they've had it in life and that they're the victims in all of this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The guy didn't put up much of a fight, didn't yell, scream, even run. He's like a submissive dog in an alpha dog run, they just pack up and the mess starts. Maybe the kid was drunk, frozen in fear, just incompetent or a combination. I found the whole episode pathetic on both sides.
 

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It looks like they were chasing the victims, and laughing. The victims weren't exactly sprinting away though.

However, if you had a group of guys harassing you, and they follow when you try to leave, then you prepare to draw. Assume the worst and prepare, but don't draw yet. If they approach with obvious intent to attack, you draw. Depending on the situation, you either issue a verbal command to back off, or just start firing if it appears the command will not deter them or they are already approaching with weapons. That's how I would handle the situation anyway.

And I know it certainly isn't an option for everybody or every situation, but I know I could easily outrun any fool with his pants on the ground.
 

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I find it interesting that there was more than one camera involved in filming. Though you only see one that you are watching, there's one that one of the attackers has as well.
 

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This is one reason I believe the brandishing laws in this state need to be changed. There absolutely should be an option to draw a weapon even when the threat of deadly force is NOT 100% crystal clear.

Any one of the punches or kicks could have possibly caused death or serious bodily injury. The idea that shouldn't draw a weapon prior to the point it is obvious that deadly force is about to be used against you is unrealistic. By the time it becomes apparent that deadly force is imminent it is too late for this individual to do anything much about it. According to John Lott thousand of potential deadly force encounters are prevented simply by drawing a firearm. The mere presences of the firearm deters the criminal from proceeding with the attack.
 
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2edgesword said:
This is one reason I believe the brandishing laws in this state need to be changed. There absolutely should be an option to draw a weapon even when the threat of deadly force is NOT 100% crystal clear.

Any one of the punches or kicks could have possibly caused death or serious bodily injury. The idea that shouldn't draw a weapon prior to the point it is obvious that deadly force is about to be used against you is unrealistic. By the time it becomes apparent that deadly force is imminent it is too late for this individual to do anything much about it. According to John Lott thousand of potential deadly force encounters are prevented simply by drawing a firearm. The mere presences of the firearm deters the criminal from proceeding with the attack.
I don't think there is any legal problem with unholstering a weapon if you reasonably believe that deadly physical force is about to be used against you.
You just have to be able to convince a Grand Jury or Judge that your belief was reasonable.
I would rather climb that mountain than be on the ground bleeding.
 

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Where are all the "civil rights" advocates? When can we expect a march on city hall demanding a stop to this senseless violence?
 

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peashooter said:
I don't think there is any legal problem with unholstering a weapon if you reasonably believe that deadly physical force is about to be used against you.
You just have to be able to convince a Grand Jury or Judge that your belief was reasonable.
I would rather climb that mountain than be on the ground bleeding.
Does a couple of aggressive individuals with no weapons in their hands constitute a reasonable threat of deadly physical force? There are individuals serving long jail sentences for shooting unarmed individuals they thought were a threat of deadly physical force but the jury didn't buy it.

Individuals have also been stripped of their license and firearm because they pulled a firearm on an unarmed individual and the individual reported the incident claiming the armed citizen brandished their firearm. What happens when a report like that is made? The officer investigates the incident, gets the description of a "black gun", you happen to have a black gun and you're arrested for brandishing. The way the laws are written unless you are justified in shooting the individual you cannot pull the firearm.
 
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2edgesword said:
Does a couple of aggressive individuals with no weapons in their hands constitute a reasonable threat of deadly physical force? There are individuals serving long jail sentences for shooting unarmed individuals they thought were a threat of deadly physical force but the jury didn't buy it.

Individuals have also been stripped of their license and firearm because they pulled a firearm on an unarmed individual and the individual reported the incident claiming the armed citizen brandished their firearm. What happens when a report like that is made? The officer investigates the incident, gets the description of a "black gun", you happen to have a black gun and you're arrested for brandishing. The way the laws are written unless you are justified in shooting the individual you cannot pull the firearm.
Repeat
In any deadly physical force situation, it is up to you to be able to explain your actions, not only to the Police, but to a Grand Jury and or a Judge.
And of course, the first thing you do is SHUT UP and call a lawyer. The ONLY words out of your mouth at the scene are LAWYER. ABOGADO for those who don't speak English.

But seriously, I think the law you are speaking of is MENACING.
It is not menacing if you REASONABLY believe that deadly physical force is about to be used against you.

When you are approached by six guys who say:
GIVE ME YOUR MONEY OR ELSE what do you think they mean by OR ELSE?

As it happens, there was a robbery the other nite in the rear of the movie theater at Green Acres. According to the newspapers, the victim was approached by a group. He had an auto pistol pointed at each side of his head and a revolver aimed between his eyes.
That is not a case where you brandish. It is a case where, given the opportunity, you SHOOT.
 

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I'm surprised.
Shockhoe Bottom is a pretty good area as far as Richmond is concerned, but I haven't been there in several years.

Sydney
 
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Just remember, if Bernie Goetz had a pistol license (impossible in NYC of course) he would not have been convicted of ANYTHING.
 

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Fellas, you can't be afraid to defend yourself with a firearm if that's what you own one for. That video was a classic example for the use of a firearm to defend ones self.

If someone kicks in your door in the middle of the night, are you going to hesitate in defending your family? I sure would hope not !

Those guys who got beaten are lucky to be alive. My friend lost his life in a 1 on 1 fight so don't tell me it doesn't happen. (no weapons were used against my friend)
 

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Re: The original question in this thread:

Do you mean what would I (we) have done if we were the victim, or a bystander? If we were armed, or unarmed?

If I were the victim, armed, and knew what was about to go down there would likely be a gun drawn and/or more than one white shirt with a hole in it.

As a bystander though, you have to be really careful. Among other things, you don't know the whole story. Let me give two examples.

About a year or so ago I was at the EZ pass toll building and some fat slug in a caddy ran into some poor paki livery driver's car, screamed abuses at him, got out and assaulted him. I ran over there to help and the guy jetted. we got his plate and the cops did .....squat. Example of when TO get involved.

Another time, i see this guy chase down and try to assault this woman who is trying to run away, he's grabbing and trying to choke her. I cross two lans of traffic to try and get over there to kick his ass, but what i don't know is this broad had stolen the guy's wallet and he was just trying to get his property back. Example of when NOT to get involved.

I look at the video and assume it's an innocent victim, scumbag gangbanger initiation or something. But that's also just an assumption. I'm not sure I'd want to bet my future that the "victim" didn't have it coming or it wasn't just a case of payback or vigilante justice. If I had been armed, there might be a gun out. Whether I would start punching holes in white shirts would depend on if they came at me and were going to cause me "grievous physical injury" (from the rulebook).

Another possibility: What if the whole thing was staged to put on youtube and draw traffic and make ad revenue? (it's happened before). Boy, that would suck for you if you started shooting.

Not saying you shouldn't defend someone in trouble, but shoot first / ask questions later is not always the smartest or even correct move.
 
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