113 replies to this topic

[Walker1847]

. Wouldn't some defense...be better than NO DEFENSE ? You'd rather sit there and be slaughtered ?, or perhaps break loose and draw your weapon and protect you and your family . I cannot see how anyone would want it any other way, sitting there and getting slaughtered by animals, wouldn't be my choice .

"You'll shoot you eye out".

[Captain Will]

I am just saying that in this particular incident, even if the guy had been armed he would have been killed since they just ten ringed him without warning, and if the wife had been armed and gone for her gun, she would have prevented an immediate threat and almost certainly have been killed too.

Also, if guns prevent crime, there should be markedly reduced crime in the metropolitan cities of free states, but this does not really pan out unless you pick and choose your data sets. Dallas, Houston, Phoenix (cited by Generllrr in other thread) are about as bad as LA or NY.

[Captain Will]

To clarify: being armed may well help some victims, I am just saying in this case, unlikely.

[grifhunter]

Picking an individual fact pattern is not instructive to the general principle.
Had the deceased been armed, would he have carried himself differently such to deter an assault? Would he have had more situational awareness had he been tuned in to his options in such a location. Would he have conveyed less fear?

Its impossible to say. Maybe he sensed this coming on before they closed on him but was helpless to do anything.

We stand for the general principle of armed defense deters violence. I cited the studies above to back it up. The anti's have tried their best to disparage the authors without success. You wish to join them?

[Big Dog Arms]

Picking an individual fact pattern is not instructive to the general principle.
Had the deceased been armed, would he have carried himself differently such to deter an assault? Would he have had more situational awareness had he been tuned in to his options in such a location. Would he have conveyed less fear?

Its impossible to say. Maybe he sensed this coming on before they closed on him but was helpless to do anything.

We stand for the general principle of armed defense deters violence. I cited the studies above to back it up. The anti's have tried their best to disparage the authors without success. You wish to join them?

well said!!!

[len349]

Don't burn Newark. Cockroaches just survive and move someplace else. Put them in a box until they eat each other.

[rojo66]

Makes me sick. Anyone who takes the position that carrying a firearm is "just plain paranoid" should follow this case and then reconsider their stance. These 4 bastards have no souls and, God willing, will spend the rest of eternity in more pain and suffering than anyone could imagine.

[ChiefSailer]

The problem is that nobody wants to PAY to keep these thugs in jail, a death sentence costs even more, and mandates like 3 strikes carry unintended consequences where some guy who is not a violent killer gets locked up for life.

I am for workcamp prisons that would be less fun and more self-funding. Earn your cheese sandwich or don't get one, and te only cable youwill be watching is the one you are digging a trench for.

Plus our jails are full of crazy/homeless that don't belong there.

A bullet in the head ain't that expensive.

[grifhunter]

A bullet in the head ain't that expensive.

Unless you bought it at Cheaper than Dirt.

[Captain Will]

So you are saying if the guy had a gun he would have been strutting around with his chest puffed out and the perps would have thought he was too tough for them? WTF kind of argument is that , even? Really?

This guy was a 30 something lawyer and I would put money that "lack of swagger" was not his problem.

If he had been armed he would have been just a dead unless hey happened to shoot him in the gun, they blasted the guy as he went to open his door.

The "guns and crime" argument can be made several ways, and "validated" depending on what criteria you use in your data set. For example, thee are a lot of guns in Camden, NJ. But it has tough anti gun laws, and high crime.

The "TX vs NY" or "AZ vs CA" that you cited in the other thread don't hold water, so I think you are trying to find fact that fit your agenda rather than truth.

I am pro-gun, but I am equally pro-fact. I try to be impartial when considering data. Guns might save the liquor store guy getting robbed. Maybe even Zimmerman, but the in some cases a gun escalates a bad situation to a worse one and the victim does not always win.

Saying the perps' guns are old and don't work, etc., is BS. Saying if the guy had a gun he would have been emboldened and not victimized is crazy talk.

[Captain Will]

A bullet in the head ain't expensive, but due process is- cause Freedom isn't FREE.

[Aquabach]

When Bernie Goetz shot those poor misguided children on the Subway crime dropped somewhere like 40% for the 2 weeks until he turned himself in.

For all you concerned taxpayers worried about the cost of incarceration and/or frying the POS. We need to change the laws regarding appeals so it doesn't cost us millions. We need to change the prison system to run like Sheriff Joe runs it in Arizona: No coffee. No Cable TV. Baloney sandwiches,Tent cities with barbed wire and mine fields.
You don't like it? Then don't rob people!

And No gyms. You want exercise? Make little rocks out of big rocks or ride this stationary bicycle for 12 hours a day generating electricity to lower our electric bills.

[grifhunter]

I am pro-gun, but I am equally pro-fact. I try to be impartial when considering data. Guns might save the liquor store guy getting robbed. Maybe even Zimmerman, but the in some cases a gun escalates a bad situation to a worse one and the victim does not always win.

On a nationwide level your facts will be taken off of Brady site if you had any. You are substituting your intuition for fact in this very narrow situation in the mall parking lot. You have no idea what they (perps or victims) saw or perceived before the incident. You have no idea whether some other family (without a thirty-ish male) would have been targeted had carry laws been as liberal as in other jurisdictions.

[MetalHead]

This guy was caught off guard yet managed to take on two guys effectively. Maybe training, may be luck, maybe anything but he is alive, still has his property and there is one less scumbag around. Why again am I convincing someone on a gun forum why CCW is a good thing?

[Objectivist]

Guns are nice & I wish I could carry all the time. Situational awareness is also key. How many times have avoided a bad situation by just listening to your spidey senses?

Regarding Short Hills, I don't like covered parking lots. Too many opportunities for plotting & your sight lines are diminished. I try to avoid crowded situations as well.

[ChiefSailer]

A bullet in the head ain't expensive, but due process is- cause Freedom isn't FREE.

I was not insinuating that there should not be a trial. However once sentenced to death it should be carried out without delay.

[Big Dog Arms]

This guy was caught off guard yet managed to take on two guys effectively. Maybe training, may be luck, maybe anything but he is alive, still has his property and there is one less scumbag around. Why again am I convincing someone on a gun forum why CCW is a good thing?

. >> that's what I'm talking about !!!!

[Captain Will]

Look, I am trying NOT to get into a pissing contest here, but I am taking the facts as reported by the media in this case.The guy was surprised walking around the car after opening the door for his wife, The perps shot him with a lethal shot. the probability that he would have been able to draw a weapon and engage them is a convenient fantasy, but remote. In this scenario, initiation is 95%. If you think otherwise, then you may well be a victim, armed or not.

[grifhunter]

Look, I am trying NOT to get into a pissing contest here, but I am taking the facts as reported by the media in this case.The guy was surprised walking around the car after opening the door for his wife, The perps shot him with a lethal shot. the probability that he would have been able to draw a weapon and engage them is a convenient fantasy, but remote. In this scenario, initiation is 95%. If you think otherwise, then you may well be a victim, armed or not.

Good God man, percentages pulled out the a hole. You may be right...anybody could have been capped before they could draw, but you don't know what he saw or knew earlier. These bastards may have been observed by him one or two seconds earlier. They didn't just teleport into his body space instantly. And with no weapon, he just stood there when they approached. Bottom line, you have zero chance when targeted when you are unarmed. At least with your own firearm you up your odds, no matter how small an amount.

[Big Dog Arms]

Good God man, percentages pulled out the a hole. You may be right...anybody could have been capped before they could draw, but you don't know what he saw or knew earlier. These bastards may have been observed by him one or two seconds earlier. They didn't just teleport into his body space instantly. And with no weapon, he just stood there when they approached. Bottom line, you have zero chance when targeted when you are unarmed. At least with your own firearm you up your odds, no matter how small an amount.

*** I'm with you grifhunter.....WHY IN THE WORLD would you want to " happen into a situation" UNARMED. WHEN YOU CAN BE ARMED, AND IF YOU CAN, turn the tables around fast , instead of automatically assuming you lost ....just because , makes no sense...and never will.....next topic !!!!