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Lock downs/masks fail, and why you should live again


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38 replies to this topic

#21 pewpew2020

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Posted October 20 2020 - 10:08 PM

I have a hard time taking position on covid responses... as politicized of a topic as it’s become i truly think everyone has their ideas on what should be but no one knows enough. Its a hope for the best prepare for the worst situation. This will for sure be something looked at in history as something that added to the rule book of how to handle in the future haha. Lots of guessing going on at the moment.

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#22 Ancap

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Posted October 21 2020 - 06:07 AM

I'm well aware of the fact that there were downsides to the shutdown but I don't deal in speculations about what ifs.

I'm not ignoring Sweden's results. Their mortality rate is 5.5% in a population of 10 million people. The U.S. mortality rate is 2.6% with a population of 330 million. Doing what Sweden did more than doubles the number of deaths in the U.S. I don't see that as a great success.

And how many of those deaths were due to the debacle of government handling of nursing homes which they took responsibility 

 

and how little where the deaths were among the general population?  Sweden curve is very flat while everyone else is not

 

but you want to compare the U.S.  compare Florida lockdown to California lockdown .

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=MmByg8eTyHY

 

 

admit it, lockdowns are junk science just like the original video stated



#23 2edgesword

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Posted October 21 2020 - 09:12 AM

And how many of those deaths were due to the debacle of government handling of nursing homes which they took responsibility 
 
and how little where the deaths were among the general population?  Sweden curve is very flat while everyone else is not
 
but you want to compare the U.S.  compare Florida lockdown to California lockdown .
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=MmByg8eTyHY
 
 
admit it, lockdowns are junk science just like the original video stated


Let's not be so fast to switch arguments. Your argument that the U.S. did such a terrible job isn't support by the FACTS regarding Sweden. Now you want to switch gears and talk about state to state. No one is claiming mistakes weren't made (NY and nursing homes) BUT the FACTS indicate the U.S. has done a relatively good job in halting the spread and deaths compared to other countries that didn't have the same size population or population density.

As far as NY and FL there are some very obvious differences. The first is NY was one of the very early states impacted by the virus since it's one of the major centers of international travel. A lot of that travel centers around one of the most densely population places in the country, New York City. One major mistake (sending infected people back into nursing homes) resulted in a large number of deaths among the most vulnerable segments of the population.

You take the most superficial information and make it the foundation of your argument claiming a one size fits all plan should have been adopted. Wrong! Different modes of operation have to be developed to deal with the unique aspects of the population being addressed. What is successful in small town Ohio isn't going to work in densely populated places like NYC.

#24 Ancap

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Posted October 26 2020 - 01:50 PM

Let's not be so fast to switch arguments. Your argument that the U.S. did such a terrible job isn't support by the FACTS regarding Sweden. Now you want to switch gears and talk about state to state. No one is claiming mistakes weren't made (NY and nursing homes) BUT the FACTS indicate the U.S. has done a relatively good job in halting the spread and deaths compared to other countries that didn't have the same size population or population density.

As far as NY and FL there are some very obvious differences. The first is NY was one of the very early states impacted by the virus since it's one of the major centers of international travel. A lot of that travel centers around one of the most densely population places in the country, New York City. One major mistake (sending infected people back into nursing homes) resulted in a large number of deaths among the most vulnerable segments of the population.

You take the most superficial information and make it the foundation of your argument claiming a one size fits all plan should have been adopted. Wrong! Different modes of operation have to be developed to deal with the unique aspects of the population being addressed. What is successful in small town Ohio isn't going to work in densely populated places like NYC.

There is no evidence in what you wrote and what I posted is not superficial...the video in the original post is one of the biggest leaders in economic circles and it was posted by a top immunologist at Harvard medical school. I find those two much more credible and knowledgeable then you


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#25 iGreg

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Posted October 26 2020 - 06:39 PM

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#26 2edgesword

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Posted October 28 2020 - 11:16 AM

There is no evidence in what you wrote and what I posted is not superficial...the video in the original post is one of the biggest leaders in economic circles and it was posted by a top immunologist at Harvard medical school. I find those two much more credible and knowledgeable then you


There is a ton of evidence in what I wrote even if it does contain precise numbers. You do know NYC is one of the most densely populated places in the country? Or do I have to quote the numbers? You do know the U.S. has a much higher population than Sweden? Or do I have to quote the numbers? You do know a large percentage of those that have died in NYC are the elder? Or do I have to quote the numbers? Your statement that there is no evidence in my post is ludicrous.

#27 Ancap

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Posted October 28 2020 - 05:16 PM

There is a ton of evidence in what I wrote even if it does contain precise numbers. You do know NYC is one of the most densely populated places in the country? Or do I have to quote the numbers? You do know the U.S. has a much higher population than Sweden? Or do I have to quote the numbers? You do know a large percentage of those that have died in NYC are the elder? Or do I have to quote the numbers? Your statement that there is no evidence in my post is ludicrous.

The New York numbers show that masks and lockdowns don’t work 



#28 a7vette2

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Posted October 28 2020 - 05:34 PM

Something else to throw into the mix...

 

https://www.collecti...ses-conditions/



#29 2edgesword

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Posted October 28 2020 - 08:07 PM

The New York numbers show that masks and lockdowns don’t work 

 

On the contrary the NY numbers prior to the lockdown were much higher than they are now. There were as many as 10K new cases per day in April of 2020. From June through September that dropped to less than 1K new cases per day. The lockdown did work as far as Covid infections are concerned but resulted in other very negative consequences. The now is finding the balance between total lockdown and the negative consequences that go with it versus easing restrictions while avoiding a spike in infections while reducing the damaging economic and social damage cause by a total lockdown. This isn't an issue of one or the other (total lockdown versus no restrictions) but the most favorable balance between the two.



#30 2edgesword

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Posted October 28 2020 - 08:28 PM

Something else to throw into the mix...

 

https://www.collecti...ses-conditions/

 

This is one of the reasons the mortality rate for Covid is very difficult to pinpoint. While the gross number for the U.S. is about 2.5% the real number is probably around 0.2% to 0.6% according to the estimates I've read. The difference is not only in how cause of death is determined but the total number of infections can't be determined because every infection isn't identified. The mortality rate for the seasonal flu is about 0.1%. Covid by all estimates is a least 2x higher and as high as 10x higher.

 

But there are two other considerations. The first is the severity of the illness short of death (Covid appears to be much more severe when people do develop symptoms). The other is the fact that a Covid infection may have done long lasting damage to the lungs, heart, brain, etc. not seen with the flu.

 

How to attribute cause of death in people with preexisting conditions is something the medical profession has to grapple with. If you're alive with a preexisting, get a Covid infection and die while the other factors are important the Covid infection pushed the person over the edge. That could be the cause with the flu. We do know Covid is much more contagious and can have symptoms that are much more severe than the flu. How the numbers will pan out remains to be seen but second guessing and condemning the decisions made in March based on the information we have today is irrational.



#31 mvphilly

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Posted October 28 2020 - 08:41 PM

The CDC has said 94% of Covid-19 deaths were due to other existing conditions. That leaves 6% of deaths that are directly attributed to Covid-19 only. 6% of 220,000 deaths is about 13,200 real Covid deaths. We did all of this for what?



#32 Ancap

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Posted October 28 2020 - 09:47 PM

On the contrary the NY numbers prior to the lockdown were much higher than they are now. There were as many as 10K new cases per day in April of 2020. From June through September that dropped to less than 1K new cases per day. The lockdown did work as far as Covid infections are concerned but resulted in other very negative consequences. The now is finding the balance between total lockdown and the negative consequences that go with it versus easing restrictions while avoiding a spike in infections while reducing the damaging economic and social damage cause by a total lockdown. This isn't an issue of one or the other (total lockdown versus no restrictions) but the most favorable balance between the two.

New York policies created one of the highest deaths per millions. It is not a success and that doesn’t factor the other consequences due to those policies. Such as mental illness, suicide, domestic abuse, unemployment, destruction of businesses, and the list goes on and on

 

Central planning doesn’t work for socialism and it is no different for covid 


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#33 2edgesword

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Posted October 29 2020 - 06:23 AM

New York policies created one of the highest deaths per millions. It is not a success and that doesn’t factor the other consequences due to those policies. Such as mental illness, suicide, domestic abuse, unemployment, destruction of businesses, and the list goes on and on
 
Central planning doesn’t work for socialism and it is no different for covid


No revisionist history here. It was the LACK of a thought out policy in NY that resulted in the huge number of deaths in the state. The lockdown didn't cause a huge number of deaths but it did cause a huge, very negative impact on our economy and the lives of the people that were put out of work because of it.

The critical issue now is what to do to minimize direct deaths while also minimizing the negative impact on our economy and the health issue that go along with that hit to the economy. The answer is not go back to January of 2020 or April of 2020 but somewhere in between.

#34 mvphilly

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Posted October 29 2020 - 07:46 AM

I had an envelope with a piece of paper in it i wrote something on back in June. I had my wife open and read it last night. "The virus will surge and be rampant the week before Election Day" was what it said. She just shoot her head and said "unreal" and laughed. My new name here is MV Nostradamus.


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#35 2edgesword

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Posted October 29 2020 - 08:42 AM

I had an envelope with a piece of paper in it i wrote something on back in June. I had my wife open and read it last night. "The virus will surge and be rampant the week before Election Day" was what it said. She just shoot her head and said "unreal" and laughed. My new name here is MV Nostradamus.


It is very sad and very unfortunate that something as serious as this virus has been so dramatically politicized. I have friends on one side that want to go back to January 2020 and pretend this virus doesn't exist. I have other friends that want to go back to April 2020 and lock everything down. Both act as if we've learned nothing from the experience of the last 8 months. This virus exist. It is dangerous. We can't go back to January of 2020. This virus can be controlled. We have better treatment methods. We understand who are the most vulnerable. We can't go back to April 2020.

We need to stop acting like it's an either or situation which just feeds into the political polarization.

#36 Ancap

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Posted October 29 2020 - 09:24 AM

No revisionist history here. It was the LACK of a thought out policy in NY that resulted in the huge number of deaths in the state. The lockdown didn't cause a huge number of deaths but it did cause a huge, very negative impact on our economy and the lives of the people that were put out of work because of it.

The critical issue now is what to do to minimize direct deaths while also minimizing the negative impact on our economy and the health issue that go along with that hit to the economy. The answer is not go back to January of 2020 or April of 2020 but somewhere in between.

by what metrics ?....nearby states are clearly way above New York standards for travel restrictions but they are not due to politics

 

this sounds an awful lot like the mantra leftists tout that “real socialism “ has never been tried.  
 

why are deaths from covid taking a priority over the deaths caused by policies of intervention. Which are in far greater numbers

 

italy did everything that Dr Fauci recommended and look where they are at.

 

once again these policies are a failure and should be removed immediately 



#37 2edgesword

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Posted October 29 2020 - 11:51 AM

by what metrics ?....nearby states are clearly way above New York standards for travel restrictions but they are not due to politics
 
this sounds an awful lot like the mantra leftists tout that “real socialism “ has never been tried.  
 
why are deaths from covid taking a priority over the deaths caused by policies of intervention. Which are in far greater numbers
 
italy did everything that Dr Fauci recommended and look where they are at.
 
once again these policies are a failure and should be removed immediately


I don't think death from Covid should take a priority. I think the difficulty is finding the best balance between protecting lives based on all of the factors involved. The other question is where is the role of government in all of this. This type of situation can be used as an excuse to take us down the road to totalitarianism. I don't think the right answer is at either extreme (January 2020 Covid didn't happen or April 2020 with lockdown being the only response) but somewhere in between.

#38 Ancap

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Posted October 29 2020 - 01:17 PM

I don't think death from Covid should take a priority. I think the difficulty is finding the best balance between protecting lives based on all of the factors involved. The other question is where is the role of government in all of this. This type of situation can be used as an excuse to take us down the road to totalitarianism. I don't think the right answer is at either extreme (January 2020 Covid didn't happen or April 2020 with lockdown being the only response) but somewhere in between.

 

the government has no role in this, they are just making everything worse

 

what enumerated power in the constitution do they have to offer health guidelines, regulate vaccines, control Medical care,etc?......absolutely none

 

in a free country empower the people to come up with these solutions, not the government 



#39 mvphilly

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Posted October 29 2020 - 01:57 PM

It is very sad and very unfortunate that something as serious as this virus has been so dramatically politicized. I have friends on one side that want to go back to January 2020 and pretend this virus doesn't exist. I have other friends that want to go back to April 2020 and lock everything down. Both act as if we've learned nothing from the experience of the last 8 months. This virus exist. It is dangerous. We can't go back to January of 2020. This virus can be controlled. We have better treatment methods. We understand who are the most vulnerable. We can't go back to April 2020.

We need to stop acting like it's an either or situation which just feeds into the political polarization.

I just made a prediction based on what I know about the left. Their hatred of Donald Trump and what he did to them and their plans 4 years ago and since then Trumps(pun inteded) everything. they would rather lock you down,let you die,make you go broke and hungry and totally disregard the Constitution on the state and federal level to get rid of this man.Your life and well being and that of your family means absolutely nothing to them as long as he is there. That is the main reason I refuse to abide by any of their rule,s,laws,,guidelines, data input ideas threats or anything else that comes from that hole below their nostrils.To me they do not exist.They are like the Star Trek episode with the M5 computer and Catain Dunsel. Dunsel is a term used to describe something that serves no useful purpose.Democratic Party as currently configured is or are a Dunsel.


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