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NYS Self-defense Laws


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#1 wilkens21

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Posted September 15 2020 - 08:19 AM

is this completely accurate in terms of what to do? do people have recommendations for defense lawyers on LI? 

 

https://www.newyorkc...t-do-i-do-know/



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#2 2edgesword

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Posted September 15 2020 - 09:02 AM

I think some of the things mentioned are proper like call 911 advising who you are, a brief description of what happened and what you are wearing, do not have a weapon in your hand when they arrive and do nothing that would make yourself appear to be a threat. Beyond that there are differences of opinion among legal professionals regarding what you should say to police once they arrive.

 

Some lawyers will advise say NOTHING other than your name and I will give a statement once my lawyer arrives, period. The reasoning is everything you say can potentially be used against you. Even statements you might think would have no bearing on assigning guilt to you can come back to bite you in the butt.

 

Other lawyers will say you should provided a minimal description of what happened. The problem with that is we tend to want to exonerate ourselves. Once you start talking it's hard to stop.


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#3 Charlie-NY

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Posted September 15 2020 - 09:37 AM

This doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence in this law firm:

New York Self Defense Law – I Used my Lawfully Possessed Weapon What Do I Do Know?

However, the content does make sense. Let's just hope we never end up in that situation. In today's environment, law abiding people seem to get prosecuted for anything while criminal dirtbags can loot, riot, burn threaten, etc and their actions are often ignored. Those that get arrested are back on the streets before the day is done. What is happening in this country?


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#4 Wowzer

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Posted September 15 2020 - 11:43 AM

Massad Ayoub recommends that you tell the police enough that they can do an investigation. Look him up on YT.

#5 only7rounds2

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Posted September 15 2020 - 01:37 PM

Repeat after me:

LAWYER

 

That is what you say to the Police. Nothing more.



#6 packetloss

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Posted September 15 2020 - 03:18 PM

Repeat after me:

LAWYER

 

That is what you say to the Police. Nothing more.

 

Massad Ayoub disagrees.   His point being that you have one and only one chance to make a first impression on the investigating officers and he says do you want it to be combative and uncooperative and lawyer up.   Watch his video on it.


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#7 2edgesword

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Posted September 15 2020 - 03:56 PM

Massad Ayoub recommends that you tell the police enough that they can do an investigation. Look him up on YT.


I'm familiar with him and have read some articles he has written. The problem with this is knowing what constitutes "enough that they can do an investigation". Massad approaches this from the standpoint of a season professional. At the time an individual would ever have to be involved in this type of situation it most likely is going to be the first time. They are going to be extremely nervous (huge adrenaline dump) and possibly suffering PTSD. As mentioned the individuals has a huge desire to exonerate themselves and feeling a huge amount of pressure to talking. The officer taking the statement isn't going to be the one making a decision about your guilt of innocents. You're very likely going to have all of your weapons confiscated until the DA sorts all of this out.

In my personal opinion (worth what you paid for it) I'm telling the police I'm nervous, under duress and would like to speak to my lawyer before making any statement.
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#8 ProGodProGunProLife

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Posted September 15 2020 - 05:42 PM

I'm familiar with him and have read some articles he has written. The problem with this is knowing what constitutes "enough that they can do an investigation". Massad approaches this from the standpoint of a season professional. At the time an individual would ever have to be involved in this type of situation it most likely is going to be the first time. They are going to be extremely nervous (huge adrenaline dump) and possibly suffering PTSD. As mentioned the individuals has a huge desire to exonerate themselves and feeling a huge amount of pressure to talking. The officer taking the statement isn't going to be the one making a decision about your guilt of innocents. You're very likely going to have all of your weapons confiscated until the DA sorts all of this out.

In my personal opinion (worth what you paid for it) I'm telling the police I'm nervous, under duress and would like to speak to my lawyer before making any statement.


Ayoob gives a 5 point checklist of what to say, before clamming up and speaking to a lawyer, in this video.

https://youtu.be/pCZXZMYyRl4

1) Point out the attacker and say you were attacked.

2) Say you will "sign the complaint"

These first 2 things establish your claim as the victim as opposed to being the perpetrator.

3) Point out evidence.

4) Point out witnesses

5) Tell them that you realize how serious this is and you will be happy to fully cooperate in 24 hours, after you have spoken with your lawyer.
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#9 only7rounds2

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Posted September 15 2020 - 06:48 PM

Massad Ayoub disagrees.   His point being that you have one and only one chance to make a first impression on the investigating officers and he says do you want it to be combative and uncooperative and lawyer up.   Watch his video on it.

FIRST OF ALL, the Police are not your problem. The prosecutor is.

The ONLY thing the Police can do to you is arrest you, but even that is up to the DA.

SECOND, he is NOT a lawyer. DO NOT take his "legal" advice.

THIRD, in most cases it will be presented to a Grand Jury, so it does not matter what the Police think.

FOURTH, ANYTHING you say will be put under a microscope. Therefore, say nothing. If they ask if you know the guy, and you hesitate or say maybe, they are off to the races. DO NOT help them to convict you.

 

What you can do:

1. Identify yourself. If it is at your home, state that you are the homeowner.

2. Advise them if any other people are present. Make sure they don't mistake your family for bad guys.]'

3. If you used a licensed handgun, advise them it is a licensed gun, and if possible, have your license out to hand to them.

4. DO NOT describe yourself as nervous, upset or anything else. You CAN state that your heart is pounding and request an ambulance. Cops who get into shootouts ALWAYS go to the hospital and get treated for trauma. Do the same.

5. Outside of the above, do not say one damn thing except LAWYER. ABOGADO. LAWYER. When you are the person of interest the Police are NEVER your friend, even if you are a cop in the same department.

ANSWER NO QUESTIONS OUTSIDE OF IDENTIFICATION. DO NOT TRY TO EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED AND HOW INNOCENT YOU ARE. DO NOT VOLUNTEER ANY INFORMATION. DO NOT TRY TO MAKE THE COPS "LIKE" YOU. THEY ARE NOT THERE TO HELP YOU AND DO NOT GIVE A DAMN IF YOU GO TO JAIL.

 

LAWYER LAWYER LAWYER AND KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

 

And I tell you this from PROFESSIONAL experience.


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#10 2edgesword

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Posted September 15 2020 - 06:52 PM

Ayoob gives a 5 point checklist of what to say, before clamming up and speaking to a lawyer, in this video.https://youtu.be/pCZXZMYyRl4
1) Point out the attacker and say you were attacked.
2) Say you will "sign the complaint"
These first 2 things establish your claim as the victim as opposed to being the perpetrator.
3) Point out evidence.
4) Point out witnesses
5) Tell them that you realize how serious this is and you will be happy to fully cooperate in 24 hours, after you have spoken with your lawyer.


I think this breaks it down to very specific statements, I'm the victim, he/she is the perpetrator, my weapon is here and if there are witness who they are. But be guaranteed that's NOT going to be the end of the attempt to get information. You need to have it settled in your mind nothing more is said until your lawyer shows up. Be courteous but be adamant you're not going to make any additional statements. Know that at a minimum you are going to be detained and possibly be arrested. Don't let that fear cause you to break your right to silence.

BTW, I am not a lawyer but I've spent hundreds of hours reading, watching training videos, talking to lawyers and police officers about use of deadly force and the aftermath. You can be your worst enemy in these situations due to what you say in the emotionally filled hours after a shooting incident. What you don't say rarely if ever will hurt you, which is why the Miranda warning is worded the way it is worded. What you "say" can and will be used against you.

#11 only7rounds2

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Posted September 15 2020 - 09:50 PM

I think this breaks it down to very specific statements, I'm the victim, he/she is the perpetrator, my weapon is here and if there are witness who they are. But be guaranteed that's NOT going to be the end of the attempt to get information. You need to have it settled in your mind nothing more is said until your lawyer shows up. Be courteous but be adamant you're not going to make any additional statements. Know that at a minimum you are going to be detained and possibly be arrested. Don't let that fear cause you to break your right to silence.

BTW, I am not a lawyer but I've spent hundreds of hours reading, watching training videos, talking to lawyers and police officers about use of deadly force and the aftermath. You can be your worst enemy in these situations due to what you say in the emotionally filled hours after a shooting incident. What you don't say rarely if ever will hurt you, which is why the Miranda warning is worded the way it is worded. What you "say" can and will be used against you.

He is not a lawyer. If you want legal advice, ask a lawyer not a gun magazine writer.



#12 Nordon

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Posted September 16 2020 - 06:55 AM

I think some of the things mentioned are proper like call 911 advising who you are, a brief description of what happened and what you are wearing, do not have a weapon in your hand when they arrive and do nothing that would make yourself appear to be a threat. Beyond that there are differences of opinion among legal professionals regarding what you should say to police once they arrive.

 

Some lawyers will advise say NOTHING other than your name and I will give a statement once my lawyer arrives, period. The reasoning is everything you say can potentially be used against you. Even statements you might think would have no bearing on assigning guilt to you can come back to bite you in the butt.

 

Other lawyers will say you should provided a minimal description of what happened. The problem with that is we tend to want to exonerate ourselves. Once you start talking it's hard to stop.

Yep, what you say, assume will always be used against you, say nothing until a lawyer is contacted or with you.


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#13 ProGodProGunProLife

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Posted September 16 2020 - 05:13 PM

I think this breaks it down to very specific statements, I'm the victim, he/she is the perpetrator, my weapon is here and if there are witness who they are. But be guaranteed that's NOT going to be the end of the attempt to get information. You need to have it settled in your mind nothing more is said until your lawyer shows up. Be courteous but be adamant you're not going to make any additional statements. Know that at a minimum you are going to be detained and possibly be arrested. Don't let that fear cause you to break your right to silence.

BTW, I am not a lawyer but I've spent hundreds of hours reading, watching training videos, talking to lawyers and police officers about use of deadly force and the aftermath. You can be your worst enemy in these situations due to what you say in the emotionally filled hours after a shooting incident. What you don't say rarely if ever will hurt you, which is why the Miranda warning is worded the way it is worded. What you "say" can and will be used against you.


I agree that once you have said those 5 things, you should wait for your lawyer and politely decline to answer any questions.

#14 only7rounds2

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Posted September 16 2020 - 06:34 PM

Please understand that once you invoke your right to counsel they can not use ANYTHING you say against you. Outside of pedigree information invoke IMMEDIATELY. Do NOT answer questions.



#15 2edgesword

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Posted September 16 2020 - 11:04 PM

Please understand that once you invoke your right to counsel they can not use ANYTHING you say against you. Outside of pedigree information invoke IMMEDIATELY. Do NOT answer questions.


I think that statement requires some clarification. If you invoke your right to counsel and then volunteer information that information can be used against you.

#16 only7rounds2

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Posted September 16 2020 - 11:45 PM

I think that statement requires some clarification. If you invoke your right to counsel and then volunteer information that information can be used against you.

You are correct. Anything you say in response to a question can not be used against you. You can always stupidly blurt things out.



#17 grifhunter

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Posted September 17 2020 - 12:30 AM

I any deadly force situation, this must get out and THEN clam up:  "I was attacked and in fear for my life and safety". 

 

Thats it.  It puts your position out there, without details that can be used against you. 



#18 ProGodProGunProLife

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Posted September 17 2020 - 01:04 AM

I any deadly force situation, this must get out and THEN clam up: "I was attacked and in fear for my life and safety".

Thats it. It puts your position out there, without details that can be used against you.


That is pretty much what Ayoob says, except he adds that you should say you will sign a complaint and point out any evidence and witnesses.

You definitely don't want to tell your story until you have settled down and spoken to a lawyer. Otherwise, you might say something that could end up undermining your valid self defense claim.

#19 only7rounds2

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Posted September 17 2020 - 01:24 AM

I any deadly force situation, this must get out and THEN clam up:  "I was attacked and in fear for my life and safety". 

 

Thats it.  It puts your position out there, without details that can be used against you. 

Why would you say that? Do not say anything besides ID info.

The above is what you may say in the Grand Jury.
At the scene, "my name is, here is my pistol license, I demand a lawyer".



#20 ProGodProGunProLife

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Posted September 17 2020 - 02:48 AM

Why would you say that? Do not say anything besides ID info.
The above is what you may say in the Grand Jury.
At the scene, "my name is, here is my pistol license, I demand a lawyer".


Ayoob says that if you don't state that you were attacked, and establish yourself as the victim, the only other role in the play is perpetrator.

When there is a dead man, in a pool of blood, and another man standing over him with a smoking gun, the default is going to be to treat the dead guy as the victim and the person who killed him as the perpetrator.

It is also important to point out evidence, because if you don't it might get missed, lost or misinterpreted.

If you don't say, "His gun is under the dumpster.", the police might not find it, or might assume it was yours. The attacker's buddy or some random homeless guy might grab up the weapon, while you are waiting for your lawyer, and the piece of evidence that would have exonerated you could be gone forever.

If you don't point out the a security video camera, the video might get overwritten.

Witnesses can also disappear if you don't point them out. They will also have less credibility of the police didn't see them at the scene, immediately after the incident.

There is really no way to incriminate yourself by simply saying you were attacked, want to file a complaint and pointing out witnesses and evidence.

You are not going into detail or even saying you shot the attacker, until after the you speak to a lawyer.




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