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Transfer NYS Registered Assault Rifle Back to NY From NC.

transfer nys registered assault rifle back to ny from nc

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#41 grifhunter

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Posted August 19 2016 - 07:31 PM

Can someone show me the language in some statute, SAFE or otherwise, that prohibits getting your gun back after entrusting a registered firearm to an out of state FFL? I'd like to know before I send a rifle or handgun out to have some gunsmithing.

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#42 DarkStorm

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Posted August 19 2016 - 07:46 PM

As long as the ownership remains yours and no paperwork was filed with NYSP to say you transferred ownership to an FFL or LEO, we have no problems returning it to you. Just need a copy of the AWB registration for the rifle in your name. Keep in mind it is a felony to present a forged or invalid document so don't mess around if it is not legit. We've transferred registered AWBs back to OEMs for repairs or out for gunsmithing and then back to the owner. No issues.
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#43 Beverly Sheckler

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Posted August 19 2016 - 07:46 PM

Wouldn't this all rest on things like selling the house, changing voter registration, automobile registration, and things like that?

If DEUCE left the state and let them know he left the state. How could he return?

#44 Parashooter

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Posted August 19 2016 - 08:16 PM

Peter:
Traveling, with a piece of hardware, out of state, then bringing it back, is not the issue, is not illegal and would not have made the rifle unreturnable to NY. I never said or suggested that.
Whenever an FFL transfers a piece of hardware, to another FFL, there is a bill of sale, which legitimizes/documents the transfer, between FFLs and confirms, for the receiving FFL's records, from whom s/he obtained it and under what circumstances. BATFE records, on audit of the sending FFL, will show that rifle as transferred, to another FFL, out of state, on a specific date and, on audit of the receiving FFL, show that it arrived, in NC, from NY, on a specific date.
While I agree, with many of the other posters, that much of the unSAFE Act violates federal law, in addition to being unconsitutional, it will, nonetheless, be the basis for the OP being arrested, then having to prove, if possible and very expensively, that the unSAEF Act is illegal, on its face, Even if s/he can do that, It will, also, subject that individual to at least a short term in jail, to "show the public" how well that law is "working."
If you want to continue counseling the OP to subject him/herself to that, I can't stop you, any more than I can stop the unSAFE Act from being unconstitutionally enforced.

Gary


Garibald, Again - there IS NO SALE - No transfer of ownership - There is a receipt, yes, a slip saying FFL #1 Received an item for shipping - there will be a packing list/bill of lading between the FFL's - and yet another receipt From FFL #2 for any transfer/NICS fees - But no 'bill of sale'

OWNERSHIP NEVER CHANGED.

As long as the ownership remains yours and no paperwork was filed with NYSP to say you transferred ownership to an FFL or LEO, we have no problems returning it to you. Just need a copy of the AWB registration for the rifle in your name. Keep in mind it is a felony to present a forged or invalid document so don't mess around if it is not legit. We've transferred registered AWBs back to OEMs for repairs or out for gunsmithing and then back to the owner. No issues.


And there we have it - That, is the last answer any of us need. No one can argue with the FFL's statement. (Thanks DSI )

#45 Beverly Sheckler

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Posted August 19 2016 - 08:34 PM

Garibald, Again - there IS NO SALE - No transfer of ownership - There is a receipt, yes, a slip saying FFL #1 Received an item for shipping - there will be a packing list/bill of lading between the FFL's - and yet another receipt From FFL #2 for any transfer/NICS fees - But no 'bill of sale'

OWNERSHIP NEVER CHANGED.



And there we have it - That, is the last answer any of us need. No one can argue with the FFL's statement. (Thanks DSI )


Residence changed or might have.

#46 LI Ammo

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Posted August 20 2016 - 09:00 AM

Peter:
No. You are not correct. Once the rifle went into the FFL's inventory, then shipped out of state, to another FFL, it could not be reclaimed, by the orginal owner, as a NY legal rifle. That rifle would have been recorded as having left the state, in an out of state sale. It cannot come back, except under the LEO exception.
Had he unnecessarily shipped it, through an FFL, for the purposes of an out of state competition, that would have been different.
Had he simply transported the rilfe, personally or had it shipped, to himself, that, also, would have been different. The outbound NY-based FFL, whoever that was, will have a valid sales/transfer receipt, showing it was sold/transferred, to the NC FFL.
Gary



I'd strongly disagree with this statement.

At no time does the transfer of a firearm by an FFL require a bill of sale be made out to to transfer ownership to the dealer. The FFL dealer may have to accept responsibility for the firearm, but that is not the same as ownership.

There are many instances codified in ATF rules that allow an individual to transfer a firearm to an FFL dealer, then have the dealer ship it elsewhere, and then have it returned to themselves. The ATF even allows the dealer to return said firearm without a new background check (NICS) if the owner uses the same dealer for the in and the out.

You can ask your FFL dealer to send a firearm for repair or gunsmithing, or even to yourself in another state, common in the competition and hunting hobbies.
If the ATF didn't allow this transfer, anticipate this transfer and even encourage this transfer, they would not have made the exception to the NICS check rule for returning the firearm.
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#47 only7rounds

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Posted August 20 2016 - 10:51 AM

So if he did not use the same FFL for the in and out he has to do a Brady check?
Because that would possibly be a problem, since it indicates a change of ownership.

#48 LI Ammo

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Posted August 21 2016 - 12:35 PM

So if he did not use the same FFL for the in and out he has to do a Brady check?
Because that would possibly be a problem, since it indicates a change of ownership.


Not a problem. You're mixing up different things. Yes, he'll need another NICS check, but no, it has nothing to do with ownership. The guy is sending the gun to himself, from another state, because he chose to do it that way. The transfer dealer doesn't own the gun just because it goes on his books. He only owns the gun if he bought it or took it in trade. We take in guns every day that go on our books, but are never our property. We take it on to transfer out to another person or dealer. Not sure what the hangup is with the ownership idea, every posting seems to think the dealer becomes the owner as soon as a gun goes on the books.

When you go to Florida as a snow bird for the winter and ship your car by carrier, the car hauling company doesn't own your car while it's en route. It's still owned by you and registered to you. The hauler is only responsible to take good care of it while it's in his possession.
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#49 class3

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Posted August 21 2016 - 02:41 PM

The reason the car transporter doesn't acquire voidable title is because pursuant to state law car title can only be transferred by negotiation (i.e., endorsement of a title or a title accompanied by an endorsed bill of sale).

Leaving aside the gun-specific issues inherent in FFL transfers, which I have addressed previously, I will repeat my example which most of the armchair lawyering in the thread can't seem to get a head around as nobody seems to get it. So let's make it an exam question.

Facts: You, an individual, pay for a Singer 1911 - a valuable but not unique gun -- from an out of state seller and pay $25,000. You have the gun shipped to your local FFL. Your FFL has been getting old and forgetful and the day the Singer 1911 arrives, he puts it in the display cabinet. I walk in and buy the 1911 for $15,000 and walk out with it after doing a quick license amendment at SCPD.

You then go to the FFL to collect your Singer and find it has been sold. To make matters worse, the forgetful FFL is deep in debt to the bank which has a lien on all his assets and he is very underwater, so the FFL declares bankruptcy the next day.

Answer the following:

1. Can you, the original guy who paid for the gun, go to court and get the gun back from me, the purchaser?
2. If not, can you sue for money damages from me or the FFL?
3. Who owns good title to the gun?
4. What is your remedy as the buyer in this situation?



#50 VtwinHP

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Posted August 21 2016 - 05:02 PM

See how a simple thing can be turned into a giant bag of [email protected] But stick around Im sure there will be more to follow.
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#51 Parashooter

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Posted August 21 2016 - 05:28 PM

The reason the car transporter doesn't acquire voidable title is because pursuant to state law car title can only be transferred by negotiation (i.e., endorsement of a title or a title accompanied by an endorsed bill of sale).

Leaving aside the gun-specific issues inherent in FFL transfers, which I have addressed previously, I will repeat my example which most of the armchair lawyering in the thread can't seem to get a head around as nobody seems to get it. So let's make it an exam question.

Facts: You, an individual, pay for a Singer 1911 - a valuable but not unique gun -- from an out of state seller and pay $25,000. You have the gun shipped to your local FFL. Your FFL has been getting old and forgetful and the day the Singer 1911 arrives, he puts it in the display cabinet. I walk in and buy the 1911 for $15,000 and walk out with it after doing a quick license amendment at SCPD.

You then go to the FFL to collect your Singer and find it has been sold. To make matters worse, the forgetful FFL is deep in debt to the bank which has a lien on all his assets and he is very underwater, so the FFL declares bankruptcy the next day.

Answer the following:

1. Can you, the original guy who paid for the gun, go to court and get the gun back from me, the purchaser?
2. If not, can you sue for money damages from me or the FFL?
3. Who owns good title to the gun?
4. What is your remedy as the buyer in this situation?



First - you've had TWO FFL's on this thread tell us it is not a problem - why can't you accept that?

Second - for your exam question - the answer is 1-you're a fool for buying the fake Singer... $25k for a $50k plus gun? gotta be a fake. 2-FFL opens a package that reads "Joe Blow, c/o Doddering Bodger's gunshop" and puts it in his book.... Then manages to put it in a display case? And then sells the fake Singer for $15k? - well if you had talked to this guy, and STILL had a gun sent to his shop - YOU are a fool (oh wait, you already bought the fake Singer....) 3 - He didn't OWN it - he sold it improperly, he's liable for it... Can you recover the firearm? I dunno - press charges for theft and I'd think yes... After it sat in the property clerks warehouse while the courts did their thing...

#52 only7rounds

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Posted August 21 2016 - 07:00 PM

The ONLY issue here is whether the "registered assault weapon" PERMANENTLY left the State. If so, it can never come back to a private individual.

All the rest is a matter of paper work and what can or can not proved.

#53 Gary_Hungerford

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Posted August 22 2016 - 08:13 AM

I'd strongly disagree with this statement.

At no time does the transfer of a firearm by an FFL require a bill of sale be made out to to transfer ownership to the dealer. The FFL dealer may have to accept responsibility for the firearm, but that is not the same as ownership.

There are many instances codified in ATF rules that allow an individual to transfer a firearm to an FFL dealer, then have the dealer ship it elsewhere, and then have it returned to themselves. The ATF even allows the dealer to return said firearm without a new background check (NICS) if the owner uses the same dealer for the in and the out.

You can ask your FFL dealer to send a firearm for repair or gunsmithing, or even to yourself in another state, common in the competition and hunting hobbies.
If the ATF didn't allow this transfer, anticipate this transfer and even encourage this transfer, they would not have made the exception to the NICS check rule for returning the firearm.


Yes, there are many instances where an individual can ship a gun from a dealer, to a repair shop or to another FFL or to himself and not have it affected by the un SAFE Act but, in this case, the OP moved out of state and transferred the rifle to North Carolina, along with his residence address. The records show he moved out of the state, as his driver's license and voter registraton will affirm, along with other records.
Gary

#54 Parashooter

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Posted August 22 2016 - 11:55 AM

Yes, there are many instances where an individual can ship a gun from a dealer, to a repair shop or to another FFL or to himself and not have it affected by the un SAFE Act but, in this case, the OP moved out of state and transferred the rifle to North Carolina, along with his residence address. The records show he moved out of the state, as his driver's license and voter registraton will affirm, along with other records.
Gary


IF he ever changed his residence. IF he ever changed his driver's license, IF he registered to vote down there AFTER establishing residency..

And - IF - he didn't maintain a residence in NY.

#55 Gary_Hungerford

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Posted August 22 2016 - 12:26 PM

IF he ever changed his residence. IF he ever changed his driver's license, IF he registered to vote down there AFTER establishing residency..

And - IF - he didn't maintain a residence in NY.


Peter:
Read what the OP says. He moved there last year, not last week or last month. Peter, are you going to pay the OP's legal bills or serve his jail time or accept all the grief he will get, trying to implement your opinion?
Gary

Edited by Gary_Hungerford, August 22 2016 - 12:50 PM.


#56 class3

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Posted August 22 2016 - 01:52 PM

!

#57 Parashooter

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Posted August 22 2016 - 04:16 PM

Peter:
Read what the OP says. He moved there last year, not last week or last month. Peter, are you going to pay the OP's legal bills or serve his jail time or accept all the grief he will get, trying to implement your opinion?
Gary


Once again - TWO FFL's - you know, the guys whose business it is to know... have said 'no problem'...

And once again, you're making an assumption that his move included changing residency. The OP did NOT make clear whether or not those changes (residency, license, voter reg. etc.) were made.

#58 grifhunter

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Posted August 22 2016 - 04:45 PM

The reason the car transporter doesn't acquire voidable title is because pursuant to state law car title can only be transferred by negotiation (i.e., endorsement of a title or a title accompanied by an endorsed bill of sale).

Leaving aside the gun-specific issues inherent in FFL transfers, which I have addressed previously, I will repeat my example which most of the armchair lawyering in the thread can't seem to get a head around as nobody seems to get it. So let's make it an exam question.

Facts: You, an individual, pay for a Singer 1911 - a valuable but not unique gun -- from an out of state seller and pay $25,000. You have the gun shipped to your local FFL. Your FFL has been getting old and forgetful and the day the Singer 1911 arrives, he puts it in the display cabinet. I walk in and buy the 1911 for $15,000 and walk out with it after doing a quick license amendment at SCPD.

You then go to the FFL to collect your Singer and find it has been sold. To make matters worse, the forgetful FFL is deep in debt to the bank which has a lien on all his assets and he is very underwater, so the FFL declares bankruptcy the next day.

Answer the following:

1. Can you, the original guy who paid for the gun, go to court and get the gun back from me, the purchaser?
2. If not, can you sue for money damages from me or the FFL?
3. Who owns good title to the gun?
4. What is your remedy as the buyer in this situation?


1) NO. A good faith purchaser for value, with no knowledge of the true owner ship of the pistol, becomes the new owner. The bailor has no claim against it as ownership vests with the purchaser (you).

2) Bailee, who negligently sold the pistol, is liable for the loss to the bailor who entrusted his property, and that he owned until it was mistakenly sold.

3) You, the presumably good faith purchaser.

4) The buyer doesn't need a remedy as good faith purchaser. The true owner's remedy is to sue the FFL bailee for the lost pistol's value under both negligence and breach of contract theories. If the bailee intentionally sold the pistol, under North Carolina statutes, he may be criminally liable as well.


Now that was a nice little exercise, but it is important to note that it is totally irrelevant to the issue of ownership we are discussing. The FFL as bailee doesn't acquire ownership. The good faith purchaser may acquire it and dispossess the true owner at the time of sale, but the FFL was never the owner and in the facts that the OP presents, he has never lost ownership of the rifle.

Now back to my armchair.




_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Edited by grifhunter, August 22 2016 - 04:53 PM.


#59 class3

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Posted August 22 2016 - 06:56 PM

1) NO. A good faith purchaser for value, with no knowledge of the true owner ship of the pistol, becomes the new owner. The bailor has no claim against it as ownership vests with the purchaser (you).

2) Bailee, who negligently sold the pistol, is liable for the loss to the bailor who entrusted his property, and that he owned until it was mistakenly sold.

3) You, the presumably good faith purchaser.

4) The buyer doesn't need a remedy as good faith purchaser. The true owner's remedy is to sue the FFL bailee for the lost pistol's value under both negligence and breach of contract theories. If the bailee intentionally sold the pistol, under North Carolina statutes, he may be criminally liable as well.


Now that was a nice little exercise, but it is important to note that it is totally irrelevant to the issue of ownership we are discussing. The FFL as bailee doesn't acquire ownership. The good faith purchaser may acquire it and dispossess the true owner at the time of sale, but the FFL was never the owner and in the facts that the OP presents, he has never lost ownership of the rifle.

Now back to my armchair.




_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Thank you for injecting some sanity. Your answers are correct with the added detail the the original payer for the gun has lost $25,000 since the FFL is bankrupt.

Now for a 3 point bonus:

On January 1, 2017, a friend gives me his NY registered preban AR15 (assume "give" means permanently disposed of to me) and then drops dead a minute later. I keep the rifle in my basement and finally take it to the range two years and a day later. The state police ask for the registration for the AR15 and I show my now-deceased friend's registration. What crime can I be charged with for being in possession of that AR15?

#60 grifhunter

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Posted August 22 2016 - 07:10 PM

Thank you for injecting some sanity. Your answers are correct with the added detail the the original payer for the gun has lost $25,000 since the FFL is bankrupt.

Now for a 3 point bonus:

On January 1, 2017, a friend gives me his NY registered preban AR15 (assume "give" means permanently disposed of to me) and then drops dead a minute later. I keep the rifle in my basement and finally take it to the range two years and a day later. The state police ask for the registration for the AR15 and I show my now-deceased friend's registration. What crime can I be charged with for being in possession of that AR15?


I'm just riffing on this one, so here goes.

It depends on some stuff, such as scienter to the AW law, but you could either be charged with a misdemeanor or get the benefit of the 30 day saving provision to dispose of it as a nuisance. You may have an affirmative defense of statute of limitations on the misdemeanor, but again, I'm just riffing. (No internet search as my laptop crashed).

By the way, bankruptcy doesn't mean the cash is lost, just that you're a low priority unsecured creditor.

Edited by grifhunter, August 22 2016 - 07:11 PM.






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