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Consequences of mugging me & keeping short fish

consequences of mugging me keeping short fish

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103 replies to this topic

#61 Tonto

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Posted November 10 2015 - 01:36 PM

You need to re read my last reply.. How many days have you sailed this year? I'm pushing 230 days and my relief isn't scheduled to come for another 40, I think it's a bit naive of you for trying to lecture a professional mariner, do you hold an FCC GMDSS license? It seems a boater safety course would serve you well as well, it really pisses me off that pleasure boaters get pissed at pleasure boaters for not following rules, yet they don't even know simple crap like channel 16 is BOTH HAILING and distress.

If your gonna get pissed off at people for not following the rule of good seamanship (rule 2) or other rules for that matter, then follow and know the rules or atleast make it look like you know what your talking about


I thought you said you don't fish or own a boat & never will with the time you spend on the water. You implied that are not on the water much.

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#62 BIGROB

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Posted November 10 2015 - 01:40 PM

I thought you said you don't fish or own a boat & never will with the time you spend on the water. You implied that are not on the water much.


I implied I don't own a pleasure boat and don't fish (not allowed to fish most of the time anyway.. Usually a company policy/rule), not that I do not don't work on the water, I spend 3/4 on the year on the water as it is dealing with uneducated boaters all the time. why would I spend the other 1/4 on it.

Edited by BIGROB, November 10 2015 - 01:44 PM.

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#63 Sig

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Posted November 10 2015 - 01:44 PM

You need to re read my last reply.. How many days have you sailed this year? I'm pushing 230 days and my relief isn't scheduled to come for another 40, I think it's a bit naive of you for trying to lecture a professional mariner, do you hold an FCC GMDSS license? It seems a boater safety course would serve you well as well, it really pisses me off that pleasure boaters get pissed at pleasure boaters for not following rules, yet they don't even know simple crap like channel 16 is BOTH HAILING and distress.

If your gonna get pissed off at people for not following the rule of good seamanship (rule 2) or other rules for that matter, then follow and know the rules or atleast make it look like you know what your talking about


I'm so thrilled to know that you are a professional mariner. Now lets get back to the real world of us amateur boaters. What percentage of VHF owners have a FCC GNDSS license? I'd venture to guess less than 10% I'd bet even less monitor on channel 16 on their VHF at all.

All this has nothing to do with what went on anyway. I could have had a conversation with the other boat without a radio they were so damn close. I didn't want to!

The following is taken directly from the link you provided. We were at anchor & hence neither boat was bound to monitor channel 16.

All vessels must monitor this channel while underway. Calls to other vessels are normally initiated on Channel 16 except for recreation vessels which may use (voluntarily) Channel 09 VHF-FM. The FCC has designated Channel 09 as a recreational calling channel in order to eliminate congestion on Channel 16 VHF-FM.

Edited by Sig, November 10 2015 - 01:52 PM.

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#64 Sig

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Posted November 10 2015 - 01:51 PM

Does anyone else get the feeling that BigRob & Sig have crossed paths before?

Not that I'm aware of. But seeing that he spends about 270 days on the water we may have since I generally do about 60 or so. I don't think we will in the future unless I fish lake Michigan. Gonna miss the Big guy.

Edited by Sig, November 10 2015 - 01:52 PM.


#65 Tonto

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Posted November 10 2015 - 01:52 PM

I implied I don't own a pleasure boat and don't fish, not that I do not don't work on the water, I spend 3/4 on the year on the water as it is dealing with uneducated boaters all the time. why would I spend the other 1/4 on it.


I read it differently...

I don't fish nor own a boat, probably will never with the amount of time I spend on the water, a simple radio call would have fixed this problem for you Before any of this escalated.



My late Uncle captained Esso Oil Tankers back in the 1950's, 1960's, & 1970's. He owned 2 boats for pleasure/fishing when he was home (Ommel, Denmark). I spent 45 days with him one summer & every day we were out fishing at 4:30 am...mostly for eels. He loved the sea & fishing.

#66 Aquabach

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Posted November 10 2015 - 01:55 PM

I'm not surprised that a thread got people arguing ( this IS LIF after all) but I'm a little surprised about it's over this.

Seems everyone is in agreement that the other boater was in the wrong and people are arguing over if he should have been ratted out or not. I for one think he got what he deserved. Others may think the OP should have hailed the rude boater but I doubt if hailing him once to ask him to give him some space and then hailing him a second time to ask him to throw back shorts would ever have worked.
That said,can't we get back to arguing about giraffes and dentists and such?
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#67 BIGROB

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Posted November 10 2015 - 01:56 PM

I'm so thrilled to know that you are a professional mariner. Now lets get back to the real world of us amateur boaters. What percentage of VHF owners have a FCC GNDSS license? I'd venture to guess less than 10% I'd bet even less monitor on channel 16 on their VHF at all.

All this has nothing to do with what went on anyway. I could have had a conversation the the other boat without a radio they were so damn close. I didn't want to!

The following is taken directly from the link you provided. We were at anchor & hence neither boat was bound to monitor channel 16.

All vessels must monitor this channel while underway. Calls to other vessels are normally initiated on Channel 16 except for recreation vessels which may use (voluntarily) Channel 09 VHF-FM. The FCC has designated Channel 09 as a recreational calling channel in order to eliminate congestion on Channel 16 VHF-FM.


GMDSS operators lic. Covers much more than just VHF, it encompasses all distress and safety equipment I could ever run into, however it is a requirement for me to operate on vessels depending on what sea area they are able to transit.
I do not and cannot expect pleasure boaters to have that level of training, however what I would like to see is that people are familiar with the correct ways to operate their equipment. I routinely get calls on channel 16 from boaters asking me which side they can overtake me on, cross me etc.. While it's usually not nessesary for them to do that I appreciate it.

You underlined "underway" you are "underway" when you are at anchor you are still "underway" just not "making way" when they mean underway, they mean not moored. With that being said though, I do not think pleasure boats under a certain length require a vhf radio.. If they do not then it is not compulsory to monitor ch16..

I understand what channel 9 is used for, I personally never monitor it. Most recreational boats only have one vhf, so monitoring 16 is the way to go.

As I said above I do not care about the guy getting fined for being a douche, I was simplyingg saying that there was a Much more diplomatic way of handling it.. You were also dealing with another pleasure boater, he probably didn't even think to look where your anchor was leading

Edited by BIGROB, November 10 2015 - 02:01 PM.


#68 Aquabach

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Posted November 10 2015 - 02:01 PM

Not to mention when they would just take the females, cut them open for the eggs and then throw their bodies along with the males overboard

Speaking of eggs and bad fishermen,I had a student years ago that worked for the DEC studying the lobster disease in the Long island Sound.
She told me that the lobstermen were dunking the females with eggs ( which you're not allowed to take for good reason) in buckets with chlorine bleach to get all the eggs off.

#69 Sig

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Posted November 10 2015 - 02:05 PM

GMDSS operators lic. Covers much more than just VHF, it encompasses all distress and safety equipment I could ever run into, however it is a requirement for me to operate on vessels depending on what sea area they are able to transit.
I do not and cannot expect pleasure boaters to have that level of training, however what I would like to see is that people are familiar with the correct ways to operate their equipment. I routinely get calls on channel 16 from boaters asking me which side they can overtake me on, cross me etc.. While it's usually not nessesary for them to do that I appreciate it.

You underlined "underway" you are "underway" when you are at anchor you are still "underway" just not "making way" when they mean underway, they mean not moored.

I understand what channel 9 is used for, I personally never monitor it. Most recreational boats only have one vhf, so monitoring 16 is the way to go

I concede that you know more about FCC & USGC regs than most recreational boaters ever will or care to know.

That doesn't have jack squat to do with what went down. I had zero interest in engaging the other boater.

#70 BIGROB

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Posted November 10 2015 - 02:07 PM

Speaking of eggs and bad fishermen,I had a student years ago that worked for the DEC studying the lobster disease in the Long island Sound.
She told me that the lobstermen were dunking the females with eggs ( which you're not allowed to take for good reason) in buckets with chlorine bleach to get all the eggs off.


I'm not familiar with commercial fishing practices, I am currently working with a few people that used to work in the fishing industry in Alaska, king crabs etc etc.. and my scope of knowledge only extends to what they share with me. My great uncle used to lobster in the sound but never spoke to him about his experience.
I can tell you that 99% of commerical fishers navigate like Butt hats, and never answer the radio, I do not even bother calling them and wasting my time. I have had more success hailing yachts and pleasure boats on 16.

To illustrate this, here is a picture of the AIS information (on my TRANSAS) from a fishing boat, it says he is dredging / engaged in under water operations... Implying he is restricted in his ability to maneuver which would mean I can not impede the safe passed of his vessel. Yeah he is dredging the bottom alright.. For shrimp.

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Edited by BIGROB, November 10 2015 - 02:19 PM.


#71 helmup

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Posted November 10 2015 - 03:04 PM

There is no right to fish.
There is a right to keep and bear arms.
They could completely outlaw hunting and fishing without taking away our rights.
What they have done with lots of laws like the unSAFE act is against our rights.
Of course they can do as they please since they don't give a crap about the Constitution.


This sentiment invariably surfaces in any number of unrelated topics.
You have the same right to fish, or hunt, as you do to breathe.

Not looking for an argument or drama (discussion is fine)
The 9th Amendment seems to state clearly that our rights are not limited to the ones enumerated in the Constitution.
In fact, many have argued that our rights are not granted by a piece of paper, but are God given, or Natural rights.
By asserting that any right not listed in the Constitution, does not exist, now elevates that piece of paper to the controlling influence our rights.
Here is a discussion of the 9th Amendment.
If I'm not understanding it, feel free to explain it, but I think that We The People have more rights than are listed in the BOR.


Ninth Amendment - Unenumerated Rights
Amendment Text | Annotations
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
9th Amendment Annotations
Rights Retained by the People
Aside from contending that a bill of rights was unnecessary, the Federalists responded to those opposing ratification of the Constitution because of the lack of a declaration of fundamental rights by arguing that inasmuch as it would be impossible to list all rights it would be dangerous to list some because there would be those who would seize on the absence of the omitted rights to assert that government was unrestrained as to those. 1 Madison adverted to this argument in presenting his proposed amendments to the House of Representatives. ''It has been objected also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; but, I conceive, that it may be guarded against. I have attempted it, as gentlemen may see by turning to the last clause of the fourth resolution.'' 2 It is clear from its text and from Madison's statement that the Amendment states but a rule of construction, making clear that a Bill of Rights might not by implication be taken to increase the powers of the national government in areas not enumerated, and that it does not contain within itself any guarantee of a right or a proscription of an infringement. 3 Recently, however, the Amendment has been construed to be positive affirmation of the existence of rights which are not enumerated but which are nonetheless protected by other provisions.
The Ninth Amendment had been mentioned infrequently in decisions of the Supreme Court 4 until it became the subject of some exegesis by several of the Justices in Griswold v. Connecticut. 5 There a statute prohibiting use of contraceptives was voided as an infringement of the right of marital privacy. Justice Douglas, writing the opinion of the Court, asserted that the ''specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance.'' 6 Thus, while privacy is nowhere mentioned, it is one of the values served and protected by the First Amendment, through its protection of associational rights, and by the Third, the Fourth, and the Fifth Amendments as well. The Justice recurred to the text of the Ninth Amendment, apparently to support the thought that these penumbral rights are protected by one Amendment or a complex of Amendments despite the absence of a specific reference. Justice Goldberg, concurring, devoted several pages to the Amendment.
''The language and history of the Ninth Amendment reveal that the Framers of the Constitution believed that there are additional fundamental rights, protected from governmental infringement, which exist alongside those fundamental rights specifically mentioned in the first eight constitutional amendments. . . . To hold that a right so basic and fundamental and so deep-rooted in our society as the right of privacy in marriage may be infringed because that right is not guaranteed in so many words by the first eight amendments to the Constitution is to ignore the Ninth Amendment and to give it no effect whatsoever. Moreover, a judicial construction that this fundamental right is not protected by the Constitution because it is not mentioned in explicit terms by one of the first eight amendments or elsewhere in the Constitution would violate the Ninth Amendment. . . . Nor do I mean to state that the Ninth Amendment constitutes an independent source of right protected from infringement by either the States or the Federal Government. Rather, the Ninth Amendment shows a belief of the Constitution's authors that fundamental rights exist that are not expressly enumerated in the first eight amendments and an intent that the list of rights included there not be deemed exhaustive.'' 7 While, therefore, neither opinion sought to make of the Ninth Amendment a substantive source of constitutional guarantees, both did read it as indicating a function of the courts to interpose a veto with regard to legislative and executive efforts to abridge other fundamental rights. In this case, both opinions seemed to concur that the fundamental right claimed and upheld was derivative of several express rights and in this case, really, the Ninth Amendment added almost nothing to the argument. But if there is a claim of a fundamental right which cannot reasonably be derived from one of the provisions of the Bill of Rights, even with the Ninth Amendment, how is the Court to determine, first, that it is fundamental, and second, that it is protected from abridgment? 8
Footnotes
[Footnote 1] The Federalist No. 84 (Modern Library ed. 1937).
[Footnote 2] 1 Annals of Congress 439 (1789). Earlier, Madison had written to Jefferson: ''My own opinion has always been in favor of a bill of rights; provided it be so framed as not to imply powers not meant to be included in the enumeration. . . . I have not viewed it in an important light--1. because I conceive that in a certain degree . . . the rights in question are reserved by the manner in which the federal powers are granted. 2. because there is great reason to fear that a positive declaration of some of the most essential rights could not be obtained in the requisite latitude. I am sure that the rights of conscience in particular, if submitted to public definition would be narrowed much more than they are likely ever to be by an assumed power.'' 5 Writings of James Madison, 271-72 (G. Hunt ed. 1904). See also 3 J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States 1898 (1833).
[Footnote 3] To some extent, the Ninth and Tenth Amendments overlap with respect to the question of unenumerated powers, one of the two concerns expressed by Madison, more clearly in his letter to Jefferson but also present in his introductory speech. Supra, n.2 and accompanying text.
[Footnote 4] In United Public Workers v. Mitchell, 330 U.S. 75, 94 -95 (1947), upholding the Hatch Act, the Court said: ''We accept appellant's contention that the nature of political rights reserved to the people by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments [is] involved. The right claimed as inviolate may be stated as the right of a citizen to act as a party official or worker to further his own political views. Thus we have a measure of interference by the Hatch Act and the Rules with what otherwise would be the freedom of the civil servant under the First, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments.'' See Ashwander v. TVA, 297 U.S. 288, 300 - 11 (1936), and Tennessee Electric Power Co. v. TVA, 306 U.S. 118, 143 -44 (1939). See also Justice Chase's opinion in Calder v. Bull, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 386, 388 (1798), and Justice Miller for the Court in Loan Butt'n v. Topeka, 87 U.S. (20 Wall.) 655, 662 -63 (1875).
[Footnote 5] 381 U.S. 479 (1965).
[Footnote 6] Id. at 484. The opinion was joined by Chief Justice Warren and by Justices Clark, Goldberg, and Brennan.
[Footnote 7] Id. at 488, 491, 492. Chief Justice Warren and Justice Brennan joined this opinion. Justices Harlan and White concurred id. at 499, 502, without alluding to the Ninth Amendment, but instead basing their conclusions on substantive due process, finding that the state statute ''violates basic values implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,'' (citing Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325 (1937)). Id. at 500. It would appear that the source of the fundamental rights to which Justices Douglas and Goldberg referred must be found in a concept of substantive due process, despite the former's express rejection of this ground. Id. at 481-82. Justices Black and Stewart dissented. Justice Black viewed the Ninth Amendment ground as essentially a variation of the due process argument under which Justices claimed the right to void legislation as irrational, unreasonable, or offensive, without finding any violation of an express constitutional provision.
[Footnote 8] Notice the recurrence to the Ninth Amendment as a ''constitutional 'saving clause''' in Chief Justice Burger's plurality opinion in Richmond Newspapers v. Virginia, 448 U.S. 555, 579 -80 & n.15 (1980). Scholarly efforts to establish the clause as a substantive protection of rights include J. Ely, Democracy and Distrust--A Theory of Judicial Review (Cambridge: 1980), 34-41; and C. Black, Decision According to Law (New York: 1981), critically reviewed in W. Van Alstyne, Slouching Toward Bethlehem with the Ninth Amendment, 91 Yale L. J. 207 (1981). For a collection of articles on the Ninth Amendment, see The Rights Retained by the People: The History and Meaning of the Ninth Amendment (Randy E. Barnett, ed., 1989).
- See more at: http://constitution....h.AiSSEKBi.dpuf

#72 NRATC53

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Posted November 10 2015 - 03:35 PM

My friend & I went out Sunday morning to do some blackfishing. Much to my surprise there wasn't a boat within 2 miles from where we wanted to fish. It took me 3 attempts anchoring before I was I was satisfied with our position over the rock structure. This is a very large area that can easily hold 40+ boats without crowding anyone.

We had a slow pick going of mostly short blacks. I look up to see a 40+ foot boat running downtide & downwind right at us. The captain proceeds to put on the brakes & drop anchor about 200' in front of us. He put his vessel in reverse & now is setting his anchor uptide & upwind like somehow physics won't affect his boat. Of coarse after his boat settles in he is now 50'-60' right smack in front of us (over our anchor rode). The wind is forecast to gust to 25kts & that now has me concerned for if he breaks loose there will be little time to avoid a collision. I also can't readily move as my anchor is under his vessel. I'm also steaming about this guy just mugging the spot I'm on.

I'm trying my best to just ignore the fact that he's there & just fish. This is when I see one of the guys fishing catch what appears to be an obviously short blackie. I wait to see if they measure it & toss it back. Nope, it went right into the bucket. Next I see a porgy about the size of my hand enter the same bucket. That was the last straw as now I'm really mad. My partner & I have been putting back every fish that is undersized & these guys mug me & are keeping those fish. No way!

I grabbed my phone & googled the DEC poaching hotline. Two & half hours later here comes a DEC patrol boat steaming directly at my new pal. They board him & we see a DEC officer dumping fish over the side. The officer gets back on his boat & they proceed to drift back about 100 yards for what must have been 15-20 minutes. The DEC now approaches our vessel & we show them our catch. They proceed to tell us that the boat in question had 7 short fish on board. They then go to the poachers & hand them their tickets. That 15-20 minutes was spent writing I guess.

I checked the fines & found that it is $154.00 per count.

Moral of the story: You can either mug me or keep short fish, but you can't do both. :nono

Thank you

#73 C6NY

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Posted November 10 2015 - 04:10 PM

Sig, you should invest in an anchor ball. In the event of an emergency you can drop off your anchor line in a couple seconds with a quick release setup and come back for your anchor rig when you can. If dopey dude in the 40 footer drags his anchor you could be out of his way in a flash. I found out after years on the water the type of clueless jerks that would park nearly on top of you like that, don't know squat about even basic seamanship and are the most dangerous ones out there.
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#74 Sig

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Posted November 10 2015 - 04:27 PM

Sig, you should invest in an anchor ball. In the event of an emergency you can drop off your anchor line in a couple seconds with a quick release setup and come back for your anchor rig when you can. If dopey dude in the 40 footer drags his anchor you could be out of his way in a flash. I found out after years on the water the type of clueless jerks that would park nearly on top of you like that, don't know squat about even basic seamanship and are the most dangerous ones out there.

I have an anchor ball on board that I keep in case of the anchor getting hung up. It would still be a cluster**** since the anchor line would still need to be pulled through the windless. I find the windless to be a blessing and a curse. I love the fact that I don't need to coil all that line but it takes forever to drop when I'm trying to anchor over a small piece especially when there's a ripping tide or wind.
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#75 Aquabach

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Posted November 10 2015 - 04:45 PM

This sentiment invariably surfaces in any number of unrelated topics.
You have the same right to fish, or hunt, as you do to breathe.

Not looking for an argument or drama (discussion is fine)
The 9th Amendment seems to state clearly that our rights are not limited to the ones enumerated in the Constitution.
In fact, many have argued that our rights are not granted by a piece of paper, but are God given, or Natural rights.
By asserting that any right not listed in the Constitution, does not exist, now elevates that piece of paper to the controlling influence our rights. ....

Not looking for an argument? Well, I'll argue about that! :)

That's an excellent point regarding the 9th amendment.
Perhaps a better way for me to say it is the Right to keep and bear arms is well stated in the Constitution.
The reason for it is crystal clear to anyone that reads their history and is honest about it.
I would agree that we have more rights than are spelled out in the Constitution but would say clearly defined rights should be even harder to regulate by the government.
I agree with the need for the state to impose limits on fishing and hunting to manage the resource for all the people.
There might be one of the differences. Our right to keep & bear arms effects no one else but those that may wish to do us harm.
Hunting & fishing are using natural resources that belong to all.
However, I did not consider the 9th amendment at all, been too busy arguing for them to stop infringing on 2A for the last 20 years I forgot there's more than 4 or 5 amendments!
I think you make a very good point for our other rights and we need to remember that.
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#76 warmnfuzzyar

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Posted November 10 2015 - 05:20 PM

how do the fishies find their way home in the dark time ?

#77 Ransom

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Posted November 10 2015 - 05:42 PM

Not right but on the flip Side NYS DEC rules that are different then let say Connecticut across the sound or Jersey are just not right. NYS sux with there regulations on everything sometimes Civil Disobedience is going to happen. Look at Artificle reefs out east which we can't get but sure we pay to send our stuff for other States reefs. We have the toughest everything in NYS and Pay the Most.
As far as the guy setting on top of your Line well Like mentioned If you had or use a Ball to pull up just run around him and screw it gets tangled oh well when he opens his mouth just cut his line.

Edited by Ransom, November 10 2015 - 05:45 PM.


#78 Capt John

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Posted November 10 2015 - 06:11 PM

So, 4 pages of back and forth and I still don't know the name of the 40'er and POC.
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#79 PWGUNNY

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Posted November 10 2015 - 06:20 PM

Sounds like the boat captain was a douche and I can't stand inconsiderate people like that. F 'em
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#80 Sig

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Posted November 10 2015 - 06:35 PM

Not right but on the flip Side NYS DEC rules that are different then let say Connecticut across the sound .

NYS & Connecticut regs for blackfish are the same this time of year. 4 fish per person at 16" or more. Connecticut does have spring & summer open seasons which we don't.





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