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Get the latest facts on the new NY SAFE gun laws that effect you!

AR-15's ARE LEGAL in NY

ar 15s are legal in ny

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36 replies to this topic

#1 Vycor

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Posted January 16 2013 - 10:22 PM

With all the hype going on I wanted to chime in here on a nice article I read regarding AR-15's and California, which has had the same law that we just passed for a while (with some exceptions such as we can only have 7 rounds, and our registrations, ammo, etc... but basically the Assault Weapon ban is the same)... here is what the article says and should shed some light to us new yorkers who are panicing, at least it made me feel a bit better:

http://www.tenpercen...?main_page=ar15

AR15s and AK47s are legal in California again! Below is an outline of how this is possible using a question then answer format followed by a factual, numbered statement. This information will always be kept up to date.

I thought all AR15/AK47 Series firearms were illegal?
In 2001, a California Supreme Court Decision (Harrott vs. County of Kings) clarified that SB23 could not ban AR15/AK47s by series, but must ban them by specific make and model number. The CA DOJ used as a reference the Kasler List which specified which firearms were banned. The CA DOJ admitted in 2005 that the Harrott decision was law and that receivers not listed specifically by make and model number in the Kasler List were legal to possess. Further in September 2006, Attorney General Bill Lockyer clearly laid out the legality of these receivers in a letter to Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger as he wrote in support of AB2728. AB2728 passed and became law on January 1, 2007 and the Attorney General no longer has the ability to list AR15/AK47 Series firearms as assault weapons.

1. AR15/AK47 receivers not on the Kasler List are legal and are known as Off List Lowers/Receivers (OLL).

What about the ban on flash suppressors, bayonet lugs, pistol grips, and collapsible stocks?
Despite OLLs being legal, semi-automatic, centerfire rifles with a detachable magazine cannot have any one of the following features (PC 12276.1).
Flash Suppressor
Forward Pistol Grip
Flare/Grenade Launcher
Pistol Grip
Collapsible Stock
Thumbhole Stock
If your firearm does not have any of these prohibited or “evil” features, then you can have a detachable magazine. Note that bayonet lugs, laser sights, threaded barrels for rifles, nor anything else not listed are not “evil” features and can be used on a detachable magazine rifle.

You are also restricted from having.
A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

2.a. Featureless Builds that utilize the MonsterMan Grip or U-15 Stock are legal.

Here are some examples of featureless builds.
MonsterMan Grip equipped rifle.
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California Rifles U-15 equipped rifle.
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There are even AR15 uppers that are dedictated .22 LR rimfire caliber and those rifles can possess all of the "evil features" you want because they are not a "semi-auto matic centerfire" rifle.

2.b. Rimfire rifles are not covered under PC 12276.1 and may have detachable magazines and evil features.
Spike's Tactical Dedicated .22 LR Upper
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I don’t want a rifle with those “crazy” looking grips and stocks nor a whimpy .22 LR. What other options do I have?

We personally like our MonsterMan Gripped featureless rifles and would recommend at least owning one if you have lawfully possessed large-capacity magazines. However, we also enjoy owning and possessing many fixed magazine rifles as well.

Again PC 12276.1 says you cannot have a “semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following…” The main question is what does the law say a “detachable magazine” is? CCR 978.20(a)

““detachable magazine” means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required. A bullet or ammunition cartridge is considered a tool. Ammunition feeding device includes any belted or linked ammunition, but does not include clips, en bloc clips, or stripper clips that load cartridges into the magazine.”

If you have a semi-automatic, centerfire rifle that has a magazine that requires the use of a tool to remove, it does not meet the definition of a “detachable magazine” and as a result, the restrictions in PC 12276.1 do not apply.

3. Rifles that utilize a fixed magazine device like the Bullet Button or Prince50 Magazine Lock Kit can legally utilize flash suppressors, forward pistol grips, pistol grips, collapsible stocks, thumbhole stocks, and/or flare launchers.

Here are some examples of “fixed” magazine rifles.
Bullet Button equipped rifle with C Products 10/30 10 Round Magazine.
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The Bullet Button device installs into a standard AR15 receiver. This device allows for a 10 round magazine to be removed from the rifle with the use of a tool, but not with your hands or fingers. Since it requires a tool every time, it does not meet the definition of a "detachable magazine".
Prince50 equipped rifle.
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The Prince50 is a standard magazine button that has a second hole drilled through it in order to accomodate a small set screw. When this set screw is tightened into the reciever, it prevents the magazine button from being pushed in. As a result, the magazine cannot be removed. However, you cannot loosen or remove the set screw while there are evil features on the rifle because the button can then be pushed in with your finger, which does not require the use of a tool to remove, making the firearm a "detachable magazine" rifle. The only time the set screw should be removed is when the rifle no longer has any evil features or when removed outside of California.

I heard the CA DOJ issued a memo and made the Bullet Button and Prince50 illegal.

The California Department of Justice did two things to try and "clarify" the defintion of "capable of accepting" a detachable magazine. First they issued an undated memo stating in their opinion that "semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in §12276.1(a)(1)." However, there is no basis for this opinion in the law. In fact, Firearms Enthusiast Gene Hoffman wrote the Office of Administrative Law and asked that the CA DOJ stop posting that memo on their website as it was creating "underground regulations". The CA DOJ has since removed the "Important Notice" from its website.

Gene Hoffman's Letter to the Office of Administrative Law and the CA DOJ Response

Second the CA DOJ actually submitted proposed changes to CCR 978.20 on June 27, 2006. After numerous comments from gun owners, the CA DOJ modified their submission on November 1, 2006. However, they did not submit the change to the Office of Administrative law by June 27, 2007 and the one year submission window closed and the definitions have not changed.

4. The CA DOJ memos are not law nor has the law changed. The definition of a detachable magazine has not changed and the Bullet Button and Prince50 kits do not meet the defintion of a "detachable magazine".
What about non-AR15 rifles?

These same rules apply to all centerfire detachable magazine rifles. That means if you wanted to buy an off list AK47 receiver or rifle, it would be legal as long as you complied with the assault weapon rules contained in PC 12276.1. The Harrott vs. County of Kings case was about an AK47, not an AR15.
5. The Harrott decision was about AR/AK series rifles. The same rules apply to AK47s.

Azex AK47 Rifle with MonsterMan Grip
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Russian American Armory Saiga Rifle
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I heard that Saigas are listed and illegal.

If you refer to the Kasler List, you will see that under the Kasler list, the "Kalashnikov USA - Hunter Rifle / Saiga" is a listed AK Series Weapon. However, that is a Kalashnikov USA manufacturered/imported Saiga and not the Russian American Armory made rifle.

To help clarify the situation, look at the rest of the Kasler List. You will notice in both sections that the model numbers AK-47, AK47, and AR-15 are listed under several different manufacturers/importers. If it was sufficient to just ban all Saigas, then why did they still list the model numbers AK-47, AK47, and AR-15 by several different manufacturers/importers? The Harrott decision specifically stated that you cannot ban these firearms by series, but they must be banned by specific make and model. If a new company like Stag creates a "Stag - AR-15", it will not fall under the Kasler List just because there is a "Colt - AR-15".

6. Russian American Armory Saigas are not specifically listed in the Kasler List and are legal to possess and own in California.

Has the California Department of Justice given official approval of any of this?
Ever since the first letters originated from the CA DOJ regarding OLLs, a flood of off list receivers and CA compliant rifles have been imported and built in California. No matter what the intentions of those original letters were, the reality is those letters were directly responsible for the importation of legal semi-automatic rifles that the anti-gun lobby would rather law-abiding citizens did not own or possess.

As a result, the CA DOJ has all but stopped issuing opinion letters on the legality of any OLL related products. Initially the CA DOJ attempted to modify or “clarify” regulations to limit fixed magazine builds. However, this attempt increased the sales of featureless builds and eventually ended in failure when the time window to officially submit their revisions expired.

What liberty minded citizens should know is they do not need permission from their government to exercise their rights and participate in lawful commerce. The DOJ has not approved nor disapproved of any of the fixed magazine devices or alternative grips and stocks. This FAQ was created to give the consumer a clear reference to the penal code and regulations required to remain in compliance with the law.

In the end the consumer is responsible for knowing the legality of their purchases and to also ensure that their firearms comply with all federal, state, and local laws. At Ten Percent Firearms we have been lawfully selling and gunsmithing AR15 rifles since December 2005. We are comfortable in exercising our rights and we are also comfortable in defending our actions with law enforcement and if necessary in a court of law.

If you have read this FAQ and are not comfortable purchasing AR15 or AK47 rifles, then you should not buy them. If you have read this information and have seen that these firearms are indeed legal, we can help meet all of your California compliant (and most of your out of California) AR15 rifle needs.

For more detailed information you can refer to the Bill Wiese California AR/AK Series Assault Weapon FAQ, the new Calguns.net CA Assault Weapon ID Flowchart or e-mail us at guns@tenpercentfirearms.com

    Edited by Vycor, January 16 2013 - 10:24 PM.

    Home of the 11.4lb. AR-15
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    #2 AngryAzn

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    Posted January 16 2013 - 11:01 PM

    RAA is listed under banned MFG of rifles.

    #3 Ant90h

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 12:53 PM

    Does anyone know of a NYS definition of detachable magazine?

    #4 mattyj513

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 01:26 PM

    Does the fixed mag have to be 10 (7)? Or can a 30 be fixed?
    "Right now this is a government of law, not men.
    We will make it a government of men, not law.
    Because we're men." - Stogie Lonesome

    #5 Kevin529

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 01:54 PM

    View Postmattyj513, on January 17 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

    Does the fixed mag have to be 10 (7)? Or can a 30 be fixed?

    I believe a 30 can be fixed for 10, as per the "OR CAN BE READILY CONVERTED TO ACCEPT MORE THAN TEN(10) ROUNDS" portion of the magazine section.
    Everything posted above is a hypothetical work of fiction

    "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." - Ronald Reagan.

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    #6 DosDemiGod

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 02:14 PM

    Folks...it seems to me there is a lot of wishful thinking here.  They have specifically said ...any AK or AR Variant of any caliber made by these mfgs are BANNED period.   Now you can keep what you have if you want to register it or sell out of state. Those are your legal options.  Forget about the 'one' feature deal....no matter what you do with the features and AR is an AR and AK is an AK and it specifically says they are banned.  It also says that the list can be amended to add more ( I am paraphrasing)   I believe this is where the features stipulations will come to define anything they forgot to list. I Could not be more against this latest measure and will be moving by AWs out of NY if it comes down to it rather than registering.  The fact remains you can keep your AW as is if you register but you cannot modify your AW out of the banned category to avoid registration.  P.S. this is not California

    If I am way off base please help me to understand how I am misinterpreting this debacle
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    #7 Lemming

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 02:49 PM

    View PostDosDemiGod, on January 17 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

    Folks...it seems to me there is a lot of wishful thinking here.  They have specifically said ...any AK or AR Variant of any caliber made by these mfgs are BANNED period.   Now you can keep what you have if you want to register it or sell out of state. Those are your legal options.  Forget about the 'one' feature deal....no matter what you do with the features and AR is an AR and AK is an AK and it specifically says they are banned.  It also says that the list can be amended to add more ( I am paraphrasing)   I believe this is where the features stipulations will come to define anything they forgot to list. I Could not be more against this latest measure and will be moving by AWs out of NY if it comes down to it rather than registering.  The fact remains you can keep your AW as is if you register but you cannot modify your AW out of the banned category to avoid registration.  P.S. this is not California

    If I am way off base please help me to understand how I am misinterpreting this debacle

    Please show me where in S2230 it lists firearms to banned by name?  Indeed, the old list in PL265 has been deleted.

    If you cannot find such a list (which you won't) can you show me where in S2230 someone is granted the authority to create such a list?

    The only thing about a website in S2230 is that NYSP needs to provide an education website.
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    #8 TenInchFryingPan

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 02:52 PM

    View PostDosDemiGod, on January 17 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

    If I am way off base please help me to understand how I am misinterpreting this debacle

    You keep referring to this "list" that's posted on the website for the state police.
    There's nothing official about that list.   It's a guideline, and a bad one at that.
    The law is what defines an "assault weapon"... not some list on a website.   Only the law.

    Edited by TenInchFryingPan, January 17 2013 - 02:52 PM.


    #9 DosDemiGod

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:03 PM

    View PostTenInchFryingPan, on January 17 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

    You keep referring to this "list" that's posted on the website for the state police.
    There's nothing official about that list.   It's a guideline, and a bad one at that.
    The law is what defines an "assault weapon"... not some list on a website.   Only the law.
      

    Fair enough... you and Lemming are both correct in that I am referring to the list put up on NYSP website.   So let me ask either of you. In your opinion.. Do you think they will allow you to circumvent the ban and the need to register your  AR/AK by removing some evil features?  It doesn't not matter to me as I will not be registering or bastardizing mine but that's me.
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    #10 TenInchFryingPan

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:05 PM

    View PostDosDemiGod, on January 17 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

    Do you think they will allow you to circumvent the ban and the need to register your  AR/AK by removing some evil features?

    Quite simply... if your current rifle does not fit the new definition of an "assault weapon" as per the NY Safe Act of 2013, then it does not need to be registered.

    Edited by TenInchFryingPan, January 17 2013 - 04:06 PM.


    #11 do0zer

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:05 PM

    View PostDosDemiGod, on January 17 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

    Folks...it seems to me there is a lot of wishful thinking here.  They have specifically said ...any AK or AR Variant of any caliber made by these mfgs are BANNED period.   Now you can keep what you have if you want to register it or sell out of state. Those are your legal options.  Forget about the 'one' feature deal....no matter what you do with the features and AR is an AR and AK is an AK and it specifically says they are banned.  It also says that the list can be amended to add more ( I am paraphrasing)   I believe this is where the features stipulations will come to define anything they forgot to list. I Could not be more against this latest measure and will be moving by AWs out of NY if it comes down to it rather than registering.  The fact remains you can keep your AW as is if you register but you cannot modify your AW out of the banned category to avoid registration.  P.S. this is not California

    If I am way off base please help me to understand how I am misinterpreting this debacle

    The confusion is from the previous proposal, in which the police have the power to state what is and isn't a assault weapon

    The signed law gives the police no such power

    http://www.troopers....s/NYS_SAFE_Act/

    This is done to get the direct response you are giving now.

    Pay attention to the quote below

    This list is intended only as a guide and is not meant to be an exclusive, exhaustive list as there may be additional weapons that will also meet the amended definition under the new law.
    Posted Image

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    #12 Bcwood64

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:11 PM

    So I've been confused, i just bought my NY compliant AR in November. I need to modify to register it? Or can I just register the way it is.
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    #13 CobraCommander

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:14 PM

    If that crap about rimfire holds true in the crap law here, totally buying one of these
    http://www.hk22rimfi...page=416-d145rs

    #14 Lemming

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:17 PM

    View PostDosDemiGod, on January 17 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

    Fair enough... you and Lemming are both correct in that I am referring to the list put up on NYSP website.   So let me ask either of you. In your opinion.. Do you think they will allow you to circumvent the ban and the need to register your  AR/AK by removing some evil features?  It doesn't not matter to me as I will not be registering or bastardizing mine but that's me.

    I intend to fully comply with the law as executed.  I caution you that you're posting on a public forum something that could, perhaps, be interpreted that you will not.  If you're goal is to be a test case in court then I admire your courage.  Otherwise I worry about your prudence.  :)

    Doubtlessly you mean to store any non-compliant/non-registered firearms outside of NYS.
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    #15 TenInchFryingPan

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:17 PM

    View PostBcwood64, on January 17 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

    So I've been confused, i just bought my NY compliant AR in November. I need to modify to register it? Or can I just register the way it is.

    You could just register it the way it is... if you decided to register it.

    #16 DosDemiGod

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:19 PM

    View Postdo0zer, on January 17 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

    The confusion is from the previous proposal, in which the police have the power to state what is and isn't a assault weapon

    The signed law gives the police no such power

    http://www.troopers....s/NYS_SAFE_Act/

    This is done to get the direct response you are giving now.

    Pay attention to the quote below

    This list is intended only as a guide and is not meant to be an exclusive, exhaustive list as there may be additional weapons that will also meet the amended definition under the new law.

    sorry for the delay..damn work is interfering with my goofing off...


    If the police no longer have that power..great.   I did read and pay attention to that line but if we are saying that anything on that site is not official then the whole thing is moot.  Also, if you read it careful this line is really implying just because you do not see your AW does not mean it is not  a banned item.  Again if nothing is official on this site that really does matter what the line says or does not say.  I guess will all have to wait to see if any of this will survive legal challenges
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    #17 DosDemiGod

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:21 PM

    View PostLemming, on January 17 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:

    .....

    Doubtlessly you mean to store any non-compliant/non-registered firearms outside of NYS.

    YES.... I will move them out of NYS until I can either bring them back here legally or move out of this state to join them.
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    #18 EliteAR

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    Posted January 17 2013 - 04:37 PM

    View PostCobraCommander, on January 17 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

    If that crap about rimfire holds true in the crap law here, totally buying one of these
    http://www.hk22rimfi...page=416-d145rs

    wouldnt this be banned as well
    only has 10rd mags
    detachable mag
    pistol grip
    muzzle brake
    collabsable stock

    #19 Ayarza22

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    Posted September 20 2013 - 09:40 AM

    Legal again. Inbox me for new manufacturer web site
    In my mags I keep 1 round of forgiveness on top, underneath is hollowpoints

    #20 Ayarza22

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    Posted September 20 2013 - 09:45 AM

    Straight from Cuomo site. Q: If I modify my gun by removing all design characteristics that makes it an
    assault weapon, do I have to register it?

    A: No. If you modify your gun so that it is not an assault weapon, you do not have to register it. The modification must be permanent however. This includes, for example, removing the bayonet lug by cutting or grinding, grinding off the threads on the barrel, removing the foregrip so that it cannot be readily reattached, or any change that cannot be reversed through reasonable means.
    In my mags I keep 1 round of forgiveness on top, underneath is hollowpoints





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