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RSC vs UL listed safes

11K views 23 replies 16 participants last post by  Parashooter 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Let's take a look at Residential Security Containers, hereafter referred to as RSC's, and safes. First, let me state that there is no legal provision that I know of that regulates what may, or may not, be called a safe. In other words, I can take Scotch Tape and business cards, tape them into a little box, put a pin across the corner, and legally sell it as a "safe". Shame on you if you pay good money for it, but it's an excellent example of caveat emptor.

The best, in my opinion, rater of security containers is Underwriter's Laboratories. However, simply because a container has a U.L. label it does not mean you are looking at a true safe. Please be aware that there are several rating categories in the U.L. system. I'll provide my synopsis of the pertinent areas, but it's beyond the scope of this thread to quote the entire manual. Feel free to go to the official U.L. website & wade through the verbiage if you care to. However, also be aware that U.L. is the only tester that I know of that openly publishes their test parameters. And that's a significant point when attempting to do an honest comparison of manufacturer's claims.

The security categories I'll be talking about are the RSC, construction, attack resistance, and thermal protection. Simply put, an RSC designation means that sheet metal has been used in the construction of the security container. Beyond that, the RSC label means that the container has been tested to resist physical attack by one person, using hand tools (commonly meant to mean a hammer and large screwdriver) with no lever length exceeding 18 inches, for 5 minutes. Many import units now will take the body sheet metal, bend it into the interior, fold it three or four times, & use that as the frame which the bolts lock up behind. What happens when you fold sheet metal? Rhetorical question, folding sheet metal weakens it. It's possible to view an excellent example of this type of construction by accessing the YouTube video "Security On Sale". Therein two young men flop an RSC on it's back & pop the door in one minute and 42 seconds I think. A careful examination of the "crook's" movement patterns will reveal that they obviously weren't rehearsed. A frequently heard objection to the methodology of the YouTube video is that if the RSC were bolted upright, the "crooks" couldn't have done what they did. Please. It's true that if the RSC were upright, it would have taken them longer, but the point of the video is valid. A major reason I'd think that the RSC was flopped is that most people will sit through a couple of minutes of sales video, but literally won't sit still for a ten minute video pitch. Nonetheless, no RSC, regardless of other considerations, is high-grade protection from physical attack.

U.L. will not rate a security container as a safe unless all six exterior surfaces are at least ¼" inch thick plate steel. Which brings us to construction ratings. A "B" rate safe will have, at a minimum, quarter inch plate used throughout its exterior construction. The better one's will have a door of ½" thick steel plate. And the steel will not be mild rolled plate. Better "B" rated safes will use something like A36 high tensile tool steel for their construction. There are further construction ratings such as C, E, F, and beyond. A "C" rated unit will have 5 exterior surfaces of ½" plate and a 1" thick plate door. An "E" rated safe will have 1" thick exterior surfaces with the door being 1.5" thick. The "F" rated safe will incorporate a layer of manganese steel laminated in the exterior surfaces to deter torch attack. Note that the construction ratings of "B" etcetera are not directly comparable to attack resistance ratings of TL, TR, etc. However, careful examination of the two rating systems does allow justifiable conclusions to be drawn.

An attack rating label, such as TL15, certifies that the door will withstand an attempted forced opening by tools for 15 continuous minutes. That's the door only. If a unit is rated as TL15 X 6, then the entire body of the safe (all six sides) is certified to withstand the attack for 15 minutes. The common ratings concerning tool attack are TL15 and TL30, for 15 and 30 minutes of successful resistance. A TR rating is a resistance to a torch attack. The same time and side parameters apply to the nomenclature. So, if you're in possession of the TLTR30 X 6 safe, you've got one helluva unit. However, that type of unit usually carries a price tag so as to preclude ownership by private individuals. In other words, they are very expensive.

When it comes to thermal protection ratings for home use, the only one to pay any attention to is the U.L. one-hour certification. You will almost certainly run across several different "systems" if you go shopping for a "safe". There's the Omega Laboratories label, the Pyro 3000, the BTU certification, and others. Until you know the test parameters of each "system", it's impossible to draw any accurate comparisons. What's more, the only tester that I know of that does publish the aforementioned parameters is Underwriters Laboratories. A thumbnail description of the U.L. process is this: The test safe goes into the furnace, the door is shut & the fire is lit. The one-hour test timer only starts when the furnace temperature rises to 1700 degrees f. At the end of the hour, anything that's going to pass the test will have its internal test transponder reporting an interior temperature of something like 270 - 280 f. That's not the end of the test however. The burn in the furnace is stopped, but the furnace remains sealed until it's internal temperature falls to laboratory ambient, 68 f. At no time can the internal temperature of the test container rise above 350f for the entire test. The 350f figure is the temperature determined by U.L. that data is recoverable from good quality paper. As an aside, the paper quality parameters cover some few pages themselves. Not, "can't put it down" reading.

When confronting other thermal rating figures, you should ask yourself some questions: "What's the rise time to test temperature?" "Did the test period timer start when the gas was lit, or when test temperature was reached?" "Was the container placed in the test furnace in the upright position that it would be in my home?" "Did the test include the furnace cool-down time?" Until you know the answers to questions such as these, it's just not possible to say that the container provides X number of minutes protection at Y temperature, and be able to draw a meaningful conclusion from the numbers.

OK, thermal protection is not rocket science. RSC's use sheet metal for body construction & they will usually use either sheet rock, i.e. gypsum wallboard, or a foam filler for the insulating medium. Sometimes gypsum board sans paper will be called "fire rock", don't be fooled, its the same stuff. In any case, my point is that if you put thicker and denser material between the heat source & what you want saved, you get better protection with plate steel and concrete than with sheet metal and gypsum. The thermal protection offered by virtually all RSC's is minimal in my experience.

When it comes to container locks, the only two real choices these days are digital, or manual combination. But, there are sub-categories that make substantial differences in both the reliability and protection you get when you buy. Many manual combination dial locks on import RSC's are what is known as a wheel-pack unit. They are relatively easy to make, offer the three number combination most of us are familiar with, and cannot be told from exterior examination from a high quality unit such as a U.S. made LaGard or S&G. However, if you want the combination changed, the LaGard and Sargent Greenleaf units are made to allow that relatively quickly and easily. The import wheel-pack units are frequently very much a PIA to change the combination. Speaking as a professional locksmith, I will charge you more to change the combination on a low-tech wheel-pack than I will to do the same job on a quality unit that's made to have it done. There are inherent limitations due to the mechanics of combination dials that absolutely should be adhered to. They are: Each number should be at least 10 digits from the next, and the final number should not lie in the 80-0-20 quadrant. In example, a combination of 30-20-30 is OK, but a combo of 05-10-95 is sure to cause problems. But, there are thousands of possible combinations available to the user within those limitations. On the other hand, wheel-pack units may only offer you a few (12?) possible combinations, depending on the way the thing is built. In any case, I'll strongly suggest that no end user who has not been trained to do so attempt to change their own manual combination dial. It will cost you major money if you try it & don't get it exactly right.

Electronic locks offer some very real advantages to manual combination dials. There are also some very real drawbacks. An electronic keypad offers superior speed of opening, by several hundred percent, over the typical manual combo dial. Usually, the electronic keypad lock is far more user friendly when changing the combination also. Just in case though, I'll offer this common sense rule: Do it with the door open, check it at least three times before trying it with the door closed. Failure to do so will result in your locksmith's being able to afford a new toy. Another caveat: Always make sure that the electronic lock you're considering has 1. an external battery, and 2. a burn memory. Locks without a burn memory rely on a capacitor to supply electricity to the memory card while you change the battery. Take more time than the capacitor has current & you may very well have a problem. A lock that has a burned in memory can have the battery removed while you travel around the world & still retain your particular combination upon your return & re-installing the battery.

Oh, and concerns about EMP's, and super-crooks with monster lap top computers who will plug in to your lock & crack the combo in 28 seconds max are just not real world concerns. If you're spending time worrying about those, then please also give due consideration to giant meteors and Yellowstone blowing up.

http://www.youtube.c...en_US&fs=1
 
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#4 ·
Keep in mind that the safe they are breaking into is better than nothing and most burgulars unless they know there is a safe there are'nt coming with prybars.Also just bolting that safe to the floor and  positioning it into a corner also would slow them if not stop them from pushing it onto it's back.As always you get what you pay for :)
 
#5 ·
a couple jokes the video makes.
showing a 1/16 piece of steel vs 1 inch .... really ? is this how all the corners are being cut at walmart ? dont think they ever sold anything that high on the quality scale .
and my favorite :

"if these were real thieves it would take a little time for them to get into your home or office and a little time for them to locate your safe, so lets start our timer a little early"

..... 5 seconds ? 5 seconds to break in and locate a safe ?

they seem to make a nice safe, but do they really have to be that stupid for the video ?
 
#7 ·
There are somethings as said that can make even a mediocore safe much harder to bust. One is hide it. The other is bolt it down and/or position it so that a theif could not get a long prybar into safe or work it to get it open. And of course you could set up booby traps leading up to the safe, maybe a punji pit or even a moat. haha.
 
#8 ·
I padlock and a chain is better than leaving it out in the open. A locked closet door is better than an unlocked. The list goes on....

Are there safes that are better than others? Yes. However, if you have firearms, and you are worried, its better to have a 300 dollar safe, than to try to be saving for the 3000 dollar safe. Getting a safe onto its back and allowing a 250 lb man leveraged with a 5 or 6 ft pry bar.. thats a little uncommon to find thieves with that large a pry bar. it doesn't however stop a thief from a plasma cutter, which will quickly and quietly cut through half an inch of steel on 120v.
 
#9 ·
Tully said:
And of course you could set up booby traps leading up to the safe, maybe a punji pit or even a moat. haha.
I know we're not suppoed to be flogging products here, but this little bad boy will send anyone packing right quick.
And, no. I have no affiliation or intrest. This is just a good inexpensive product.
The $78 version works via trip wire. Might not be suitable in every application. After that version they start to get expensive.

http://www.securitysolutionsworld.com/store.php?crn=230
 
#13 ·
madmax said:
Pate, your thoughts on the Zanotti's?
They have a good reputation, but personally would prefer a solid welded body for security. I can see applications where moving a safe in sections is a much better option though.

The part that is lacking is the fire rating. 1200 degree for 20 minutes, versus Amsec BF6030 90 minutes @ 1275 degree.

People tend to buy "safes" on the cheap and it's usually a mistake. If you buy a good brand and model and it will be around in your family much longer than you. :)
 
#16 ·
Pat that was a rsc rated safe? Wouldnt that safe have to pass the 5 minute test? Any idea who made that "safe" i hope to god that wasnt an Amsec. I couldnt read if that UL tag was a fire rating or burg rating.
 
#17 · (Edited by Moderator)
Since this thread is back in play, I'd like to add that fire rating and its necessity has a lot to do with where a safw will be kept., In a basement, fire rating is not of particularly high consequence as heat fo rthe most part goes UP. True, a collapsing lfoor can fall around your safe, but some houses burn without even scorching the wllpaper in a basement. Just something to think about.

On the downside, besides weight, most cheap safes (and even some expensive ones) are fireproofed by adding gypsum board. Which is hygroscopic to a degree, it holds moisure and essentially ensures that you have at least some humidity in your safe- a $20 hygrometer is a good investment and the magic numbers at 40% (to prevent rust altogether) and 50% (point at which rust will spread)

Then if your safe is in a basemernt, add the concern for water intrusion vs. fire.
Pate, seen that video before but it sure makes a good case for utilizing floor and/or wall bolts, doesn't it?

PS I love 1:24, Stack-On vs. Graffunder
 
#18 ·
Bolting a safe in a corner to the wall and floor is a great option. Anything you can do to limit work space and leverage is a bonus.

You're only buying time with a safe. Everything can be defeated with enough time and effort. The upside is a smash and grab punk isn't going to spend the time or risk getting caught.
 
#20 ·
Thanks. Couldnt read it. The video was fuzzy on my phone.
Id love to know who made that safe and how it got a RSC rating.
Although the one guy was using at least a 4' pry bar. Either way i really want to know who the safe was made by.
Guarantee you wouldnt be able to bust open an Amsec BF that way that quickly. And that safe supposedly has the same rating.
 
#21 ·
Whether you want to protect yourself, your property, and your family or you are a hunter providing food to put on your family's table, your gun plays an integral role. Your gun reflects your personality and your desire to provide for yourself and your family. Gun enthusiasts know that choosing the right firearm for the task is critical, but with so many from which to choose, it is often difficult to know whether you are getting the best value for your money . I have The Gun Box Biometric Hand Gun Safe . I purchased The Gun Box because my 2 year old nephew is in the house, and I wanted to make sure my pistols were out of reach, but I was still able to access them if needed. This thing is absolutely incredible for fitting those needs, as well as providing a few other benefits..

I am able to lock both of my pistols (Sig P250 and a Taurus PT111) in this safe. While wearing the provided wristband, I am able to control the access to the safe, and I also programmed my finger prints so it requires both to open. This limits the access to ONLY allowing entry when I am physically present..This site has great and informational reviews about it . http://www.progunowner.com/best-gun-safe-reviews/
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
Glad you're trying to do the right thing and keep kids away from unauthorized use, but...

The biometric lock is the worst thing going for a hand gun lock.
I've been using biometrics for over 10 years. They're great for convienience and cool factor.
When your finger is all shriveled up from the rain, tub, shower... it ain't workin!
When you burn your finger on the stove, or hot Brass... it ain't workin!
When you have hand cream, oil, paint on your finger... it ain't workin!

As far as the bracelet... really
Does it come in pink?
There have been so many better handgun storage solutions discussed here. Just search for them.

As far as that website?
It's nothing more than an advertising website designed to hawk products that they get referral fees for.
Are you associated with them in anyway?

Nice try reviving a 3 year old thread about "safes" to hawk a product... Not!

Oh, and welcome to LIF.
 
#23 ·
A gun safe is a great investment if you are a gun owner. It will protect your gun from theft and keep a child from having access to the gun. Many gun safes also protect your gun from being destroyed by fire and water. Many states have passed the law that your gun has to be locked up even if you don't have children in your home. If your state is one of those which have passed the law, you might as well protect your gun from fire and water with fireproof/waterproof safe. . After Gun Box Bıometric , I bought Sentry Safe Quick Access Safe . I got the safe and was able to install the battery and set up a code in minutes. It's heavy which is good. The gas strut is quite strong and will open the lid pretty quickly. I tested the buttons for quite some time. Only once did I mess it up when I forgot that the 1st button awakens it. I treated it as part of the combination. Had I looked at the light and noticed it hadn't come on I would have realized it.

Press a button, all 4 buttons light up blue momentarily. Presumably this is so you can now see where the 4 buttons are in the dark. If you were to just start pressing in a combination without seeing them there's a decent chance you'd get it wrong. In combination with the nub on the first button it should be easy to use in low light or darkness. Then with each button press a little green light lights up. You can feel a soft 'click' on each positive button press. Well not really a click, but you can feel the button bottom out. On the last button the lid pops up. You do need to be very positive with the button presses. I think it's good it's not super easy, someone could sit there and try to guess your code repeatedly (inquisitive kids?).
 
#24 ·
A gun safe is a great investment if you are a gun owner. It will protect your gun from theft and keep a child from having access to the gun. Many gun safes also protect your gun from being destroyed by fire and water. Many states have passed the law that your gun has to be locked up even if you don't have children in your home. If your state is one of those which have passed the law, you might as well protect your gun from fire and water with fireproof/waterproof safe. . After Gun Box Bıometric , I bought Sentry Safe Quick Access Safe . I got the safe and was able to install the battery and set up a code in minutes. It's heavy which is good. The gas strut is quite strong and will open the lid pretty quickly. I tested the buttons for quite some time. Only once did I mess it up when I forgot that the 1st button awakens it. I treated it as part of the combination. Had I looked at the light and noticed it hadn't come on I would have realized it.

Press a button, all 4 buttons light up blue momentarily. Presumably this is so you can now see where the 4 buttons are in the dark. If you were to just start pressing in a combination without seeing them there's a decent chance you'd get it wrong. In combination with the nub on the first button it should be easy to use in low light or darkness. Then with each button press a little green light lights up. You can feel a soft 'click' on each positive button press. Well not really a click, but you can feel the button bottom out. On the last button the lid pops up. You do need to be very positive with the button presses. I think it's good it's not super easy, someone could sit there and try to guess your code repeatedly (inquisitive kids?).
You should go look for 'opening Sentry quick access....' Lots of videos on how easy these are to open without the key/combo...
 
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