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Get the latest facts on the new NY SAFE gun laws that effect you!

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37 replies to this topic

#21 boosti

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Posted March 22 2017 - 02:15 AM

What were those two users about? I got compared to them on the other site too.
And Tony Rivers.

Captain Will was a long time LIF member. He was banned by one of the old mods of the other forum just before that other forum started. He was confrontational, being very liberal about politics.
Blue Fin was picking on and calling out to fight one of the alpha males on LIF. I don't think Blue Fin lasted long on LIF.

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#22 Steyr AUG man

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Posted March 22 2017 - 07:21 AM

Who is rivers? What's his deal?

#23 Parashooter

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Posted March 22 2017 - 08:36 AM

what is the difference?

 

Really?

 

then what is the difference between a vehicle accident and a collision? most accidents are not accidents?

 

Anyone who knows me has heard me say they are NOT 'accidents' they are "negligences" -  now, "collision" simply means a vehicle hit something - intentional, negligent or otherwise.  "accident"?  show me an 'accident' that could not have been avoided had the driver(s) done their job...  (OK, maybe a tree falling in front of you is an 'accident')

 

Are you sure you're not [Blue Fin] or [Captain Will] ??

 

I'd guess Captain Will. If not, his twin brother.

 

Funny, I was thinking the same thing.



#24 Steyr AUG man

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Posted March 22 2017 - 10:40 AM

Being negligent does not preclude it from being accidental.
 
If you are robbing my store at gunpoint, and i intend to shoot you to stop the threat, so i aim my gun at you and pull the trigger, that is an intentional shooting.
 
If you are robbing my store with a bat, and while i cover you at gunpoint you grab my gun and try to pull it away from me, causing it to discharge, isnt that an accidental discharge?
 
I believe that this whole recent move towards calling accidental discharges negligent hurts our 2A rights cause. It probably has the liberal media behind it with the goal of trying to portray us as a bunch of negligent, irresponsible  people who cant be trusted to own guns.
 
I dont buy into their whole  negative "changing perception by changing the language" thing. Sometimes their side uses very subliminal methods to accomplish their agenda by changing the language. They do it all the time.
 

Negŗo → Colored → Black → African American,
Ghetto → underserved community,
Bushwick → East Williamsburg,
South Bronx → Port Morris,
Hells Kitchen → Chelsea,
Cripple → Handicapped → Disabled → Special needs,
Hispanic → Latino,
Oriental → Asian,
Welfare → Public assistance,
psycho → emotionally disturbed,
transvestite → transgender,

Hiring quotas → Affirmative action,
 
and dont forget their latest attempt at changing perception by changing the language:
 
sporting rifle → assault weapon.



#25 DLM

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Posted March 22 2017 - 11:05 AM

what is the difference?

There isn't one unless you include that using one instead of the other will result in some pedantic jack wagon correcting you in an attempt to make themselves feel like an expert.



#26 ProGodProGunProLife

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Posted March 22 2017 - 11:27 AM

Really?

 

I don't bother to verify my gun is unloaded. I pick it up with my finger on the trigger because that's what I see in the movies. I point it at your chest proclaiming <fill in the blank>. Someone bumps me from behind and the gun goes off.

 

And you would call that an accident. 

 

Really?

 

I would say it is an accident caused by negligence/recklessness.

 

A lot of this is semantics.  Most gun people, myself included, like to refer to unintended discharges as "negligent discharges" rather than "accidental discharges" because it emphasizes the point that these things generally don't happen unless someone did something stupid, and to remind ourselves of our responsibility to handle guns safely.

 

All unintentional discharges are accidental, nearly all are also negligent.



#27 ProGodProGunProLife

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Posted March 22 2017 - 11:37 AM

Being negligent does not preclude it from being accidental.
 
If you are robbing my store at gunpoint, and i intend to shoot you to stop the threat, so i aim my gun at you and pull the trigger, that is an intentional shooting.
 
If you are robbing my store with a bat, and while i cover you at gunpoint you grab my gun and try to pull it away from me, causing it to discharge, isnt that an accidental discharge?
 
I believe that this whole recent move towards calling accidental discharges negligent hurts our 2A rights cause. It probably has the liberal media behind it with the goal of trying to portray us as a bunch of negligent, irresponsible  people who cant be trusted to own guns.
 
I dont buy into their whole  negative "changing perception by changing the language" thing. Sometimes their side uses very subliminal methods to accomplish their agenda by changing the language. They do it all the time.
 

Negŗo → Colored → Black → African American,
Ghetto → underserved community,
Bushwick → East Williamsburg,
South Bronx → Port Morris,
Hells Kitchen → Chelsea,
Cripple → Handicapped → Disabled → Special needs,
Hispanic → Latino,
Oriental → Asian,
Welfare → Public assistance,
psycho → emotionally disturbed,
transvestite → transgender,

Hiring quotas → Affirmative action,
 
and dont forget their latest attempt at changing perception by changing the language:
 
sporting rifle → assault weapon.

 

 

I disagree about that calling unintentional discharges "negligent" rather than "accidental" hurts the 2A cause.  I think it is quite the opposite.  When non-gun people here about "accidental discharges" it tends to give them the impression that guns are more inherently dangerous than they really are, and that they commonly just "go off" without anyone royally screwing up.  

 

It also helps the cause because it shows that gun owners take responsibility for safely handling our guns and don't childishly and flippantly claim, "It's not my fault, it was only an accident".  



#28 Steyr AUG man

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Posted March 22 2017 - 11:57 AM

I disagree about that calling unintentional discharges "negligent" rather than "accidental" hurts the 2A cause.  I think it is quite the opposite.  When non-gun people here about "accidental discharges" it tends to give them the impression that guns are more inherently dangerous than they really are, and that they commonly just "go off" without anyone royally screwing up.  

 

It also helps the cause because it shows that gun owners take responsibility for safely handling our guns and don't childishly and flippantly claim, "It's not my fault, it was only an accident".  

i will consider that perspective. you may have a point. But ever since that term has been popping up online, i believed that associating us gun folk with the term negligent is not helpful to us. in my old job, we always used the term "accidental". In this lawsuit-happy age, portraying someone as negligent has legal and civil consequences. I say let the judge, lawyers, and insurance companies determine negligence. It is not for us to be the judge and jury. its unfortunate that every situation today has such a high possibility of winding up in court. 

 

As I said, throughout my government career, i have only heard it referred to as an "accidental discharge".

 

The NYPD always used the term "accidental discharge". Here is the annual Firearms Discharge Report from 2007 as an example that shows it, on the top of page 6.

 

Apparently, they have recently switched to using "unintentional discharge", as evidenced by their 2011 report.  From the glossary:

 

"Unintentional Firearms Discharge -
A firearms discharge in which an officer discharges a firearm without intent, regardless of the circumstance. Commonly known as an accidental discharge."



#29 boosti

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Posted March 22 2017 - 12:01 PM

Who is rivers? What's his deal?

Was that one of the guys who started another Firearms forum when LIF was popular.

#30 Steyr AUG man

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Posted March 22 2017 - 12:18 PM

Was that one of the guys who started another Firearms forum when LIF was popular.

They replied to one of my posts "are you tony rivers" or something to that effect. I am guessing maybe he wasnt a trump fan.



#31 LarryD23

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Posted March 22 2017 - 12:46 PM

"One more comment on mindset and we’re done. Negligent discharges used to be called “accidental discharges,” and we don’t know precisely when the terminology change occurred. We would argue it’s a good one because it puts the responsibility back where it belongs—on the individual shooter. 

In an era where mechanical malfeasance by an unaided—that is, untouched by human hands—firearm is nigh unto impossible, we need to be especially diligent for another reason too: Nothing will harm the exercise of our Second Amendment liberties quite like avoidable mistakes. Hold yourself to a high standard of safety, because you can be sure the enemies of liberty will too."

 

- From the NRA' America's 1st Freedom magazine: https://www.americas...ampaign=Article



#32 ProGodProGunProLife

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Posted March 22 2017 - 01:43 PM

i will consider that perspective. you may have a point. But ever since that term has been popping up online, i believed that associating us gun folk with the term negligent is not helpful to us. in my old job, we always used the term "accidental". In this lawsuit-happy age, portraying someone as negligent has legal and civil consequences. I say let the judge, lawyers, and insurance companies determine negligence. It is not for us to be the judge and jury. its unfortunate that every situation today has such a high possibility of winding up in court. 

 

As I said, throughout my government career, i have only heard it referred to as an "accidental discharge".

 

The NYPD always used the term "accidental discharge". Here is the annual Firearms Discharge Report from 2007 as an example that shows it, on the top of page 6.

 

Apparently, they have recently switched to using "unintentional discharge", as evidenced by their 2011 report.  From the glossary:

 

"Unintentional Firearms Discharge -
A firearms discharge in which an officer discharges a firearm without intent, regardless of the circumstance. Commonly known as an accidental discharge."

 

From a liability perspective, using "accidental" is clearly better, "unintentional" might be even better from that perspective.  "Accidental" brings the connotation of something bad having happened, while "unintentional" sounds a more benign.  

 

I think there are 2 different agendas, that might be better served by different word choice.  The Police Departments would prefer to make there unintentional shootings seem more routine and an unavoidable side effect of people carrying guns.  Nobody is going to say the police shouldn't have guns.

 

The 2A rights community benefits more from guns being seen as inherently safe, as long as they are handled properly.  



#33 set2374

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Posted March 22 2017 - 03:51 PM

Accident vs. Negligent.   Two sides of the same coin at best.   If a gun is maintained and handled to the standard of a hypothetical man using reasonable care (which means following all the rules of safety to a T), then it's an accident.  In the old days, where you might have some shotguns that weren't "drop safe", you might have had some true accidental discharges where no act by the owner/handler could have been taken to prevent the discharge.   With most modern firearms, if the gun goes off when you don't intend for it to be fired---99.999999% of the time it's a result of the handler's negligence.  In any case, gun owners are subject to strict liability for the damage caused by their firearms.   You own that bullet whether it discharged by a shear act of God or because you were an idiot an handled the gun accordingly.   So, it's all to do about nothing IMO.   

 

As for the instructor in OP's video, not such a shock.   I have seen some "instructors" at the range giving some really bad advice to their students.  I don't know whether he was "certified" or not--but it doesn't really matter.   There are plenty of idiots who manage to get themselves certified to give instruction but have some God awful habits when it comes to the safe handling of firearms.   The worst are the guys that claim to have handled firearms all their life--but have been doing it badly all their lives.   Those bad habits are hard to break and it's just luck they they haven't hurt themselves or someone else along the way.   



#34 boosti

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Posted March 23 2017 - 07:09 AM

They replied to one of my posts "are you tony rivers" or something to that effect. I am guessing maybe he wasnt a trump fan.

The old LIF, getting banned was common if not a donated or club member. The new owners are cool and we can talk about anything here. Trump is going to make America great!
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#35 Walker1847

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Posted March 26 2017 - 04:15 PM

There are only firearm malfunctions or negligent discharges. If you're having "accidental discharges", it's time to find a new hobby.



#36 covertjy

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Posted March 27 2017 - 06:22 AM

The "Student" looks scared s#$%less by this inept "Instructor".  He has to duck this guy's muzzle waving then the finale of his negligent discharge is too much.  I have a S & W 29 and its single action is a hair trigger that's great so long as you're already pointed downrange ready to fire.  This could have had a horrible outcome.

 

WHAT AN A-HOLE !!!...Hey you shot your foot "Yeah, I meant to do that to prove a point"...LOL



#37 Steyr AUG man

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Posted March 27 2017 - 11:04 AM

There are only firearm malfunctions or negligent discharges. If you're having "accidental discharges", it's time to find a new hobby.

 

what year did they term "negligent discharge" come into general use? whatever journalists were responsible for that shift in language usage ere probably taken care of by the insurance lobby and/or groups representing personal injury lawyers.



#38 ProGodProGunProLife

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Posted March 27 2017 - 11:18 AM

what year did they term "negligent discharge" come into general use? whatever journalists were responsible for that shift in language usage ere probably taken care of by the insurance lobby and/or groups representing personal injury lawyers.

 

I don't know when "negligent" came into use, but I have found references to "negligent discharge" in a court case from 1995.  I also have found the term used at least as early as 1999 in a pro-gun blog from a firearms training school.  

 

I have always associated the use of "negligent discharge" with pro-gun sources, rather than anti-gun ones.  Your experience with them being called "accidental discharges", in police circles, is probably the result of police department lawyers shrewdly trying to minimize liability to their departments.  


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