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LEO's and CC's... Opinions/Thoughts?


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#81 Machria

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Posted February 20 2017 - 11:55 PM

Reading this thread makes me want to move to a cabin in the woods in Alaska!!   



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#82 Steyr AUG man

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Posted February 21 2017 - 04:12 AM

Reading this thread makes me want to move to a cabin in the woods in Alaska!!

That's an option if you don't care about getting laid.

#83 Jimco10391

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Posted March 03 2017 - 10:01 PM

The 24/7 range thing is total BS, because if you are challenged, you would have to convince the agent of the Police Commissioner, and he is NOT going to buy the idea that you were on way to the range at 4 AM Easter Sunday!



Hey I go to my 24/7 range a lot very early on Sundays.....lol very quiet....

#84 TwentyTimes

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Posted March 11 2017 - 05:43 AM

Burdeon of proof is on the prosecution.

If you have a sportsman, you have s concealed carry with administrative restrictions.

If it's 4AM Easter Sunday and your between your home and in line with a 24 hour range, they need to prove you're not telling the truth in court. The officer cannot arrest you for having your weapon, he can only confiscate it and your license can be suspended/revoked.

With this said, do you want the hassle? You'll likely need a lawyer and you'll likely have to use your time and energy to fight. No doubt, NYS is ridiculous, but it is what it is. Keep voting!

BTW, I have a second range bag, with a few things that I leave in my car. Oh. And if you're carrying, slow down. Don't blow stop signs and traffic lights, etc. don't get oulled over.

#85 boosti

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Posted March 11 2017 - 08:46 AM

Burdeon of proof is on the prosecution.
If you have a sportsman, you have s concealed carry with administrative restrictions.
If it's 4AM Easter Sunday and your between your home and in line with a 24 hour range, they need to prove you're not telling the truth in court. The officer cannot arrest you for having your weapon, he can only confiscate it and your license can be suspended/revoked.
With this said, do you want the hassle? You'll likely need a lawyer and you'll likely have to use your time and energy to fight. No doubt, NYS is ridiculous, but it is what it is. Keep voting!
BTW, I have a second range bag, with a few things that I leave in my car. Oh. And if you're carrying, slow down. Don't blow stop signs and traffic lights, etc. don't get oulled over.

It all depends on the traffic stop. Appearance, being polite and keeping your mouth shut about carrying a gun. If you have all your paper work in your lap waiting with both hands visible on the steering wheel, it should be a few words only. The officer will command your License, Registration and insurance and the reason why you are stopped. Sometimes the officer may ask you do you know why I stopped you. You should say NO. Don't engage in conversation. The officer wants to write the ticket as quickly as possible. Many times people forget, Cops also need to respond to service calls, A typical V&T stop is under 7 minutes to write a TSLED.
The administrative part is real. You will have a problem getting your pistol license back if you get caught.
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#86 only7rounds

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Posted March 11 2017 - 12:56 PM

Burdeon of proof is on the prosecution.

If you have a sportsman, you have s concealed carry with administrative restrictions.

If it's 4AM Easter Sunday and your between your home and in line with a 24 hour range, they need to prove you're not telling the truth in court. The officer cannot arrest you for having your weapon, he can only confiscate it and your license can be suspended/revoked.

With this said, do you want the hassle? You'll likely need a lawyer and you'll likely have to use your time and energy to fight. No doubt, NYS is ridiculous, but it is what it is. Keep voting!

BTW, I have a second range bag, with a few things that I leave in my car. Oh. And if you're carrying, slow down. Don't blow stop signs and traffic lights, etc. don't get oulled over.

 

 

You are VERY confused!

There is no "burden of proof".

There is no "prosecution".

Those things apply in a CRIMINAL case.

This is an adminstrative hearing, where very loose civil rules apply.

 

The Standard of Proof is "preponderance of the evidence".

Hearsay is allowed.

 

You DO have to prove your case. So you MUST testify under oath subject to perjury that you were on the way to the range at 4 AM Easter Sunday. The Hearing Examiner can simply find your testimony not credible, and you lose. It is that simple. The ONLY proof NCPD needs is that you were stopped at 4 AM Easter Sunday carrying your gun on a restricted license. That's it.

 

Keep in mind, if in fact you have a regular 4AM Sunday range time, and you can produce a range book that shows that, you should win.

 

But everyone is aware of the 24 hour range scam, and they will shut you down if you get caught.



#87 Steyr AUG man

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Posted March 11 2017 - 03:39 PM

You are VERY confused!

There is no "burden of proof".

There is no "prosecution".

Those things apply in a CRIMINAL case.

This is an adminstrative hearing, where very loose civil rules apply.

 

The Standard of Proof is "preponderance of the evidence".

Hearsay is allowed.

 

You DO have to prove your case. So you MUST testify under oath subject to perjury that you were on the way to the range at 4 AM Easter Sunday. The Hearing Examiner can simply find your testimony not credible, and you lose. It is that simple. The ONLY proof NCPD needs is that you were stopped at 4 AM Easter Sunday carrying your gun on a restricted license. That's it.

 

Keep in mind, if in fact you have a regular 4AM Sunday range time, and you can produce a range book that shows that, you should win.

 

But everyone is aware of the 24 hour range scam, and they will shut you down if you get caught.

you should go at 4AM several times over a few months, to show that it is reasonable in your case to believe that you were doing it. have all your range gear in the car. if the cop says, wheres your range bag? and you cant produce, he is likely to make the call. even a headset of ear protection is something. if the range you are supposedly headed to dont sell ammo, you better have some of that also.



#88 only7rounds

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Posted March 11 2017 - 06:07 PM

you should go at 4AM several times over a few months, to show that it is reasonable in your case to believe that you were doing it. have all your range gear in the car. if the cop says, wheres your range bag? and you cant produce, he is likely to make the call. even a headset of ear protection is something. if the range you are supposedly headed to dont sell ammo, you better have some of that also.

 

Please stop. The 4AM was just an example, this thread is about carrying all the time on a restricted permit. You can only sell that "on the way to the range" thing so many times. Membership in a private range does not over rule the restriction, and people will get jammed up.



#89 Skywalker

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Posted March 11 2017 - 06:42 PM

We as gun owners have screamed to the heavens that we are law abiding citizen and therefore our rights should not be infringed. 

 

I live in NY.  I will abide by the laws and advocate for change.  

 

I was raised by a WW II vet, life long NRA member, avid gun collector, avid shooter.  He taught me from my youngest years to enjoy this hobby with respect and safety.  He also taught me that others might not understand or value it as we do.  So, I was taught to not share any info until you knew the person well.    When we traveled, nothing was in sight in the car.  

 

But there was always a NRA sticker on the car!

 

My point is, don't get cute.   

 

Let's be the better people and work toward rational laws.


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#90 SigSauer228

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Posted March 11 2017 - 10:25 PM

Like most of you, I hold the relatively limited Hunting/Target pistol license here in Nassau County.  And I'm new.  That isn't a negative statement, actually the contrary.  When you're new, you're careful.  You read everything.  Every law, every statute, every possible interpretation.  I know what it says in black and white like most of you.

 

However, sometimes the interpretation is a moving target itself.

 

Yesterday was my first day CC'ing.  Went to the range, pistol on hip, for the first time.  The usual paranoia ensued.  Can people see my gun?  Is my mag pouch showing?  What if this damned thing falls to the ground in the parking lot and the snowflakes panic and call the police?

 

As you can expect, nothing bad happened.  I calmed down.  Professionally carried to the range, unloaded, checked in.  Dispensed 150 rounds of hate downstream, checked out, reloaded and went home.  I even stopped for a legal beverage break on the way home at an establishment where primary sales is NOT alcohol.  Mission accomplished.  

 

Then the questions came to mind.  Ones I've heard many others reiterate with no real answer in sight.  Some I hope you all can shed some light on, from a LEO's point of view.  What will happen to me, Johnny Law Abiding Citizen if...:

 

  • I'm a member of a 24/7 gun range!  That means I can pretty much always carry, as I'm "Always headed to or from the range - look Officer, my range bag is in my trunk.."  How do LEO's feel about this?  Are they on board with us as exercising #2A, or does the idea of citizens with firearms freak them out?  Is this statement legal, or will it land you in cuffs?

 

  • I'm on the way to the range and a crazed lunatic jumps in front of me.  He attacks me physically, but isn't trying to take my weapon (because I'm concealed and doesn't know I have one).  Just a crazy on a meth bender.  Am I legally liable for using my weapon to defend myself, since it isn't a "Full Carry"?  

 

  • What about to and from the range, while in the company of others?  For example, on the way back from the range and I pick up the wife.  She needs a few things at the grocery store.  Is this a legit stop?  What if I need something at Home Depot?  It's not for fuel, it's not food and beverage.  Is this "carrying outside of license"?

Please use the above to open discussion.  Like many of us, the very next thing I fear besides being forced to use my weapon is the legality and conforming to all of the rules NY places upon us.  

 

I'm answering without reading any of the other replies so, this may have been said before.

 

Read the NYS Penal Law. That will explain everything. You're granted a permit from the "County" but you fall under "NYS Penal Law". The County that issued your "permit" really has no legal ground to place "restrictions" on it, but most do. If challenged in Court, they should lose. Here's an example that I'm sure happened many times over.....a permit holder was found to be breaking an issuing County's "restriction" but NOT a NYS Penal Law. They had their pistol license revoked, and firearm confiscated but....were found "Not guilty" of committing  a crime. 

 

The subject didn't know any better and went along with the circus ride and lost their firearm and privilege to own one again in this God forsaken State. 

 

I got my pistol permit as soon as I turned 21yrs of age and the moment I was issued said "permit", I purchased a Sig Sauer P228 9mm pistol and CCW'd it all over the State of NY (minus NYC) I followed the NYS Penal Law to the letter and totally ignored the "restrictions" Suffolk County placed upon me. SC restrictions were not relevant, and still are NOT. As a CCW carrier, I've been pulled over by the police for typical nonsense (tail light out, rolling through a stop sign, illegal left turn.....etc) Not once was I asked to step out of the car so I felt it was not my business to inform him I was CCW'ing at the time so, I either took the verbal berating, or the ticket.

 

I honestly feel that the current political climate will only help us. I feel the UNsafe act will be overturned or severely watered down. I say, have patience and follow NYS Penal Law to a "T" and have a criminal defense Attorney in your contacts list on your cell phone (I do).


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#91 SigSauer228

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Posted March 11 2017 - 10:39 PM

I understood your point. My point was having your license suspended or revoked can have long term consequences that shouldn't be taken lightly. Each person has to consider the cost/benefit of carrying out of class and make their own decision.

 

Actually I think the whole discussion, on a public forum, initiated by an adult that has his license is a little ridiculous. Read the penal law, read the handbook and use your adult intellect to make a decision about when, where and how you're going to carry. Don't look for justification from others (disguised as soliciting their opinion) for doing what you clearly understand is a violation of the guidelines (I'm a member of a 24 your range...).

 

No disrespect meant but, you're going a lot deeper than what the OP asked for, You're afraid of applying for a "permit" sometime down the line should you lose one here in NY due to some dopey restriction? Most States allow you to own a handgun without a permit. All you would need is a drivers license.

For the record, I was never a member of any gun range, and will never be a member here in the state of NY.



#92 SigSauer228

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Posted March 11 2017 - 11:05 PM

Responding to your first question if someone attacks. If it's a one person with out a deadly weapon just punching you. You cannot use your firearm. You getting beat up is not considered a deadly threat

 

 

.......are you serious ?  Please explain that train of thought, I'd LOVE to hear how you would condone a 95lb female getting the snot beat out of her by a 350lb male and her NOT being able to use a firearm to defend herself.


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#93 Steyr AUG man

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Posted March 12 2017 - 05:44 PM

New York Penal Law § 10.00 Definitions of terms of general use in this chapter

 

10. “Serious physical injury” means physical injury which creates a substantial risk of death, or which causes death or serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of health or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any bodily organ.

11. “Deadly physical force” means physical force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or other serious physical injury.

 

New York Penal Law § 35.15 Justification;  use of physical force in defense of a person

1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself, herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person, unless:

(a) The latter's conduct was provoked by the actor with intent to cause physical injury to another person;  or

( b ) The actor was the initial aggressor;  except that in such case the use of physical force is nevertheless justifiable if the actor has withdrawn from the encounter and effectively communicated such withdrawal to such other person but the latter persists in continuing the incident by the use or threatened imminent use of unlawful physical force;  or

© The physical force involved is the product of a combat by agreement not specifically authorized by law.

2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:

(a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force.  Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating;  except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is:

(i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor;  or

(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30;  or

( b ) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery;  or

© He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.

 

New York Penal Law § 35.20 Justification;  use of physical force in defense of premises and in defense of a person in the course of burglary

 

1. Any person may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a crime involving damage to premises. Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly physical force if he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson.

2. A person in possession or control of any premises, or a person licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical force upon another person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such other person of a criminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree of physical force, other than deadly physical force, which he or she reasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, and may use deadly physical force in order to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or in the course of a burglary or attempted burglary, as prescribed in subdivision three.

3. A person in possession or control of, or licensed or privileged to be in, a dwelling or an occupied building, who reasonably believes that another person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary of such dwelling or building, may use deadly physical force upon such other person when he or she reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission of such burglary.

4. As used in this section, the following terms have the following meanings:

(a) The terms “premises,” “building” and “dwelling” have the meanings prescribed in section 140.00;

( b ) Persons “licensed or privileged” to be in buildings or upon other premises include, but are not limited to:

(i) police officers or peace officers acting in the performance of their duties;  and

(ii) security personnel or employees of nuclear powered electric generating facilities located within the state who are employed as part of any security plan approved by the federal operating license agencies acting in the performance of their duties at such generating facilities.  For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “nuclear powered electric generating facility” shall mean a facility that generates electricity using nuclear power for sale, directly or indirectly, to the public, including the land upon which the facility is located and the safety and security zones as defined under federal regulations.



#94 2edgesword

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Posted March 12 2017 - 09:46 PM

I'm answering without reading any of the other replies so, this may have been said before.
 
Read the NYS Penal Law. That will explain everything. You're granted a permit from the "County" but you fall under "NYS Penal Law". The County that issued your "permit" really has no legal ground to place "restrictions" on it, but most do. If challenged in Court, they should lose. Here's an example that I'm sure happened many times over.....a permit holder was found to be breaking an issuing County's "restriction" but NOT a NYS Penal Law. They had their pistol license revoked, and firearm confiscated but....were found "Not guilty" of committing  a crime. 
 
The subject didn't know any better and went along with the circus ride and lost their firearm and privilege to own one again in this God forsaken State. 
 
I got my pistol permit as soon as I turned 21yrs of age and the moment I was issued said "permit", I purchased a Sig Sauer P228 9mm pistol and CCW'd it all over the State of NY (minus NYC) I followed the NYS Penal Law to the letter and totally ignored the "restrictions" Suffolk County placed upon me. SC restrictions were not relevant, and still are NOT. As a CCW carrier, I've been pulled over by the police for typical nonsense (tail light out, rolling through a stop sign, illegal left turn.....etc) Not once was I asked to step out of the car so I felt it was not my business to inform him I was CCW'ing at the time so, I either took the verbal berating, or the ticket.
 
I honestly feel that the current political climate will only help us. I feel the UNsafe act will be overturned or severely watered down. I say, have patience and follow NYS Penal Law to a "T" and have a criminal defense Attorney in your contacts list on your cell phone (I do).


The authority of the licensing agency to apply restrictions is a matter of State law via cases that have clarified and upheld their authority to do so. If you attempted to fight that in a NYS court you would lose.

#95 Punisher1336

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Posted March 12 2017 - 09:51 PM

Theres always someone who just can't help cutting and pasting the penal law. Geez
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#96 2edgesword

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Posted March 12 2017 - 09:58 PM

No disrespect meant but, you're going a lot deeper than what the OP asked for, You're afraid of applying for a "permit" sometime down the line should you lose one here in NY due to some dopey restriction? Most States allow you to own a handgun without a permit. All you would need is a drivers license.
For the record, I was never a member of any gun range, and will never be a member here in the state of NY.


The states that do issue licenses typical ask if you have ever had a license revoked. A yes answer could be an issue so having your license revoked isn't something to take lightly. It could also be a problem in some employment situations so you should consider deeply anything that could have that type of negative impact on your future.

#97 Steyr AUG man

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Posted March 14 2017 - 09:28 AM

Theres always someone who just can't help cutting and pasting the penal law. Geez

 

you would be surprised how many brothers never read it, or dont know how to search for the relevant section.


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#98 Parashooter

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Posted March 14 2017 - 09:32 AM

I understood your point. My point was having your license suspended or revoked can have long term consequences that shouldn't be taken lightly. Each person has to consider the cost/benefit of carrying out of class and make their own decision.

 

Actually I think the whole discussion, on a public forum, initiated by an adult that has his license is a little ridiculous. Read the penal law, read the handbook and use your adult intellect to make a decision about when, where and how you're going to carry. Don't look for justification from others (disguised as soliciting their opinion) for doing what you clearly understand is a violation of the guidelines (I'm a member of a 24 your range...).

 

 

 

At a meeting that I recently attended, which included SCPD Commissioner Sini, I personally heard Investigator Larusso, who is a civilian employee of the SCPDPLB, justify the “to and from range” administrative restriction based upon the following two reason:

 

1 - Suffolk County’s population density is too high to warrant unrestricted concealed carry by civilians.
 

2 - People that are issued NYS concealed carry licenses by the SCPDPLB are not responsible enough to by issued an unrestricted concealed carry license.

 

I seriously do not believe that they have any statistical data that backs this up.

 

Investigator Larusso also stated that they are complying with the Suffolk county law that states that no additional non statutory restrictions may be placed on a license however did not provide a valid explanation as to how they are complying with that law.

 

This is not third party hearsay – I was there and this was addressed directly to me and three other gentlemen, including Legislator Cilmi (who is on our side).

 

Folks, we need to ACT UP, and NOW - especially with President Trump coming on board and CCW reciprocity becoming a reality.  Complain to everyone you can that has anything to do with this unwarranted and unconstitutional treatment.  Start with your local legislator and work your way up.  Do the same in Nassau County, and even NYC too.  We need to stop being the so darn silent on this.  We are a very large group and we can make a LOT OF NOISE.

 

 

Been there, done that. Makes everyone a lot calmer during a potentially bad situation. Always say License before firearm...and dome light on at night. Been shot before, didn't like it and sure don't want an accident due to a nervous officer

 

Yep yep... What he said... I've had a couple incidents - "officer, so you're aware, I am Licensed, and armed"  every time the response was "Okay, just don't take it out"  (well the one time was "did YOU shoot him? no. "OK" and we got back to trying to keep the guy alive)   

Getting shot is definitely no fun....  Getting stitched up by a recently-returned-from-Nam "surgeon" who hadn't gotten the idea of civilized surgery (you know, anesthesia, painkillers) back into his head - was worse.

 

 

 Vageness is what make the law work for them if it was cut and dry they would have to be a total restriction or total lack of restriction 

 

Yes 100% the county Exc apoint the commisionor who then appoint the cheif. The reason we cant have supressoron long Island is cause the cheif law enforcement officer has to sign off on it the guy who watch my house up state has three supressors why cause we are surounded by sheeple that cowwer a the thought od self reliacnce and self defence.

 

Suppressors are completely prohibited by state Law AFAIK... 

 

Correct. Zimmerman used a standard justifiable use of force defense, not stand your ground.  He didn't have a chance to flee, as he had Martin on top of him, pummeling him and bash his head into the concrete.  

 

From a purely legal standpoint, the Zimmerman case should turn out no differently under NYS law.  The anti-gun and anti-self defense attitudes of many NY jurors and judges would be the real obstacles to an acquittal in NYS, not the law.  

 

Christopher Cervino.....   White kid that was shot by a black man - very similar circumstances to Zimmerman - right here in NY... We never heard a thing about it.   It didn't fit the racial dividing agenda of the media.

 

Got Pulled over (Brooklyn),while coming back from the range,in the back seat (minivan) I had few targets.

The officer on the passenger side asked me do you have any weapon on you or in the car,I replied yes officer I do,can I see your permit, yes here it is...

Both officers young guys told me that for my and their safety I MUST notify them as soon as they approach the car about any weapon I have on me or in the vehicle, I responded this is the first time I here about it, but next time I will notify the officer/s.

 

Simong.

 

They are wrong.

 

Burdeon of proof is on the prosecution.

If you have a sportsman, you have s concealed carry with administrative restrictions.

If it's 4AM Easter Sunday and your between your home and in line with a 24 hour range, they need to prove you're not telling the truth in court. The officer cannot arrest you for having your weapon, he can only confiscate it and your license can be suspended/revoked.

With this said, do you want the hassle? You'll likely need a lawyer and you'll likely have to use your time and energy to fight. No doubt, NYS is ridiculous, but it is what it is. Keep voting!

BTW, I have a second range bag, with a few things that I leave in my car. Oh. And if you're carrying, slow down. Don't blow stop signs and traffic lights, etc. don't get oulled over.

 

The officer has no cause to confiscate your legally possessed firearm - he can contact PLB later, but you're going on your merry way WITH your guns.


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