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LEO's and CC's... Opinions/Thoughts?


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27 replies to this topic

#21 2edgesword

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Posted January 15 2017 - 05:29 PM

Welp.  I don't think its ridiculous.  I think what is ridiculous is that as a new licensee - I have more of an issue with these common hypothetical's that I hear from many, many long time pistol permit holders - than they do.  I felt like I understood the scope of the laws regarding the carry, yet still I hear guys who "belong to a 24/7 range and think they can carry at all times".  This is why I posted.  I don't seek (or need, lol) justification from others and there is no disguise applied.  Just maybe a little good old reading comprehension would benefit all here..  

 

The lesson to learn from your experience is don't go by hearsay, go by what's written in the penal law and the handbook.



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#22 2edgesword

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Posted January 15 2017 - 05:36 PM

Your joking right??  Please tell me you are joking?

 

I've read that so called "handbook" 5 or 6 times.  No, let me restate that:  I have STUDIED that handbook 5 or 6 times.  It has to be one of the most poorly written, UN-comprehensible rules/laws/handbook I've ever seen.  There are no clear sentences in it, and I think that is done on purpose so they can leave it up to courts to decide what they really mean later on.

 

So not only is the NY laws for pistols, carry and no carry... screwed up, so are the "handbooks" that try to decipher it for us regular folk.

 

Personally, me thinks about 50% of what is in the handbook would NOT hold up in courts because it is so poorly written. 

 

No, I'm not joking. While the penal law and handbook may be lacking in some respects they aren't lacking with respect to the hypotheticals raised in the OP. Now as far as your extensive study of PL and the handbook, raise a question that you still have after that extensive study and we can discuss it and maybe provide some clarification for you. But if you're going to restate the questions in the OP I'd suggest a 7th reading of both because the answers to those questions are in the PL and handbook.


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#23 LiveFreeorDie

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Posted January 15 2017 - 06:34 PM

Lol! Bo Dietl...

The gun bunch are a private and quiet group of people. That's probably why some have issue with talking about things like this in a public forum. I get that and understand their reaction. But all of us here are here because we are like minded. None of us are looking for issues with the law and our CC. We are exercising to the best of our ability our 2A right, and that in itself sometimes feels illegal in the state of NY. The reason I posted and why I pose hypothetical questions is to have a mindset and proper education regarding matters we all hope we never have to face.

I'm new here. That's why I'm posting in the newbie section If there are certain topics which make people uncomfortable, I understand and don't wish to make anyone feel uncomfortable here.

I've had my sportsman's license for about 10 yrs now and I think your post was a much validated one to of posted. When people say, "Don't ask questions like this on a public forum", that is just as ignorant as those who rail against gun rights that have no clue why they dislike firearms. The more knowledge one has exercising his/her 2A, the more valuable that person becomes in the world if legal and law abiding gun owners. There can be some "grey" areas in the guide they hand out at headquarters, I've questioned some things in there as well. 

There is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer as the saying goes.

 

We live in one of the most liberal left-wing states in the country.  Law abiding gun owners are made to feel as outcasts and unwanted by that sector of society.  If you possess firearms God forbid you try discussing laws and legalities amongst them.  They want it "hush-hush" and would simply feel better if we went away into the twilight zone.

The one thing I miss about living in NC and VA was having my CCW license.  It was the best feeling next to freedom itself when you were out and about particularly with your family.  Knowing you can legally protect yourself in the event you had to was always weights lifted off your shoulders.  Moving back to NY I unfortunately had to give up that right.  Perhaps one day in my lifetime that may change if we can get Cuomo out and start getting laws changed.


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#24 2edgesword

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Posted January 15 2017 - 07:34 PM

I've had my sportsman's license for about 10 yrs now and I think your post was a much validated one to of posted. When people say, "Don't ask questions like this on a public forum", that is just as ignorant as those who rail against gun rights that have no clue why they dislike firearms. The more knowledge one has exercising his/her 2A, the more valuable that person becomes in the world if legal and law abiding gun owners. There can be some "grey" areas in the guide they hand out at headquarters, I've questioned some things in there as well.
There is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer as the saying goes.

We live in one of the most liberal left-wing states in the country. Law abiding gun owners are made to feel as outcasts and unwanted by that sector of society. If you possess firearms God forbid you try discussing laws and legalities amongst them. They want it "hush-hush" and would simply feel better if we went away into the twilight zone.
The one thing I miss about living in NC and VA was having my CCW license. It was the best feeling next to freedom itself when you were out and about particularly with your family. Knowing you can legally protect yourself in the event you had to was always weights lifted off your shoulders. Moving back to NY I unfortunately had to give up that right. Perhaps one day in my lifetime that may change if we can get Cuomo out and start getting laws changed.


The OP contain no questions that aren't clearly addressed in the PL or handbook. If you want to make the case that NYS PL and the restrictions in the handbook are in unconstitutional I absolutely agree with you. But the issue of being a member of a 24 hour range negating the to/from restrictions is clearly not the case and the type of detours you're allow clearly don't include stopping at Home Depot or meeting your wife to go grocery shopping.

#25 LiveFreeorDie

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Posted January 15 2017 - 08:12 PM

The OP contain no questions that aren't clearly addressed in the PL or handbook. If you want to make the case that NYS PL and the restrictions in the handbook are in unconstitutional I absolutely agree with you. But the issue of being a member of a 24 hour range negating the to/from restrictions is clearly not the case and the type of detours you're allow clearly don't include stopping at Home Depot or meeting your wife to go grocery shopping.

I agree and clearly know myself where you can and can't go too and from the range.  There are other areas that can be deemed questionable/opinionating though....again...In my opinion.



#26 Jetpilot718

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Posted Yesterday, 10:25 AM

I've had my sportsman's license for about 10 yrs now and I think your post was a much validated one to of posted. When people say, "Don't ask questions like this on a public forum", that is just as ignorant as those who rail against gun rights that have no clue why they dislike firearms. The more knowledge one has exercising his/her 2A, the more valuable that person becomes in the world if legal and law abiding gun owners. There can be some "grey" areas in the guide they hand out at headquarters, I've questioned some things in there as well. 

There is no such thing as a stupid question, only a stupid answer as the saying goes.

 

 

 

^^ This many, many times over.  And especially a question posted in the "Newbies" section!  I mean, what kind of people browse the newbies section and make fun of their "stupid questions"??  It's just beyond me, and I've been on forums for decades now.  Even Moderator on some. And I still can't believe the negativity from a very select few that this post elicited.  Trying to find the line in the legal sand doesn't equal intending to break the laws.  People can talk about interpreting law without being assumed to be intending criminal acts...  isn't that kinda sorta what attorneys do every day?

 

Home Depot/Grocery Store scenario was posed because Home Depot/Grocery Store sells drinks.  Which is a permissible stop for non alcoholic beverages to and from the range.  Why else would the question be asked..  I mean, the point was quite obviously, does it have to be a friggin' 7-11 or can it be as stated in the manual, loosely at best, "any place which primary purpose isn't the sale of alcohol".  

 

Questions are supposed to engage minds in thinking, not invalidation of the question/OP.  Don't shy away new members with harsh unwarranted replies..  its not appropriate on forums and no one appreciates it or thinks it's cute.  Just say nothing, if you have nothing constructive to add.  Otherwise, if the answer is "RTFM", then just close the whole forum down.  No point for discussion.  



#27 2edgesword

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Posted Yesterday, 02:51 PM

^^ This many, many times over.  And especially a question posted in the "Newbies" section!  I mean, what kind of people browse the newbies section and make fun of their "stupid questions"??  It's just beyond me, and I've been on forums for decades now.  Even Moderator on some. And I still can't believe the negativity from a very select few that this post elicited.  Trying to find the line in the legal sand doesn't equal intending to break the laws.  People can talk about interpreting law without being assumed to be intending criminal acts...  isn't that kinda sorta what attorneys do every day?

 

Home Depot/Grocery Store scenario was posed because Home Depot/Grocery Store sells drinks.  Which is a permissible stop for non alcoholic beverages to and from the range.  Why else would the question be asked..  I mean, the point was quite obviously, does it have to be a friggin' 7-11 or can it be as stated in the manual, loosely at best, "any place which primary purpose isn't the sale of alcohol".  

 

Questions are supposed to engage minds in thinking, not invalidation of the question/OP.  Don't shy away new members with harsh unwarranted replies..  its not appropriate on forums and no one appreciates it or thinks it's cute.  Just say nothing, if you have nothing constructive to add.  Otherwise, if the answer is "RTFM", then just close the whole forum down.  No point for discussion.  

 

Is the best you can come up with is Home Depot sells drinks?!?!

 

I am all for addressing questions but when the questions take the form of those posed in the OP I take issue with them...

 

"I'm a member of a 24/7 gun range!  That means I can pretty much always carry, as I'm "Always headed to or from the range..."

 

That is not a legitimate inquiry into the limitations imposed by the restrictions (again, unconstitutional in my opinion) on our license. No one is always headed to or from the range even if they are a member of a 24/7 range. The foundation of this question was "can I get away with violating the license restrictions because I'm a member of a 24/7 range? That was the question.

 

"I'm on the way to the range and a crazed lunatic jumps in front of me.  He attacks me physically, but isn't trying to take my weapon (because I'm concealed and doesn't know I have one).  Just a crazy on a meth bender.  Am I legally liable for using my weapon to defend myself, since it isn't a "Full Carry"?"

 

I doubt anyone that has spent any time seriously reading the NYS PL or the handbook can come away from that "study" to ask the question "Am I legally liable for using my weapon". You are ALWAYS legally liable for using your weapon. The standard for using lethal force is a reasonable belief that some is or is about to used force sufficient to cause death or serious bodily injury. This is fundamental and addressed in both the PL and handbook.

 

"What about to and from the range, while in the company of others?  For example, on the way back from the range and I pick up the wife.  She needs a few things at the grocery store.  Is this a legit stop?  What if I need something at Home Depot?  It's not for fuel, it's not food and beverage.  Is this "carrying outside of license"?"

 

This is another question that is clearly addressed in the handbook and in my opinion, given the context created by the first question, another question that looks to sidestep the restrictions. Picking up your wife is not incidental to your travel to and from the range and a stop at the grocery store or Home Depot are certainly not incidental to your trip to/from the range.

 

The restrictions on our license are an abomination IMHO. If you set on violating those restriction do so based on your own understanding of the PL and handbook. Of course I'm assuming anyone with a license has read both. Don't attempt to get moral support for your decision by posting questions framed in the way they were framed in the OP.



#28 Leadwipe

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Posted Yesterday, 08:13 PM

In New York, you have to try to retreat from danger. Only if you cannot retreat, can you use deadly force. Basically, if you are assaulted and confronted, you have to try to run away. Obviously, if the "bad guy" has a gun, you can't retreat, unless he offers to let you go. In your dwelling, you don't have to retreat. But that would only apply if the "bad guy" has a deadly weapon. Technically you can use deadly force to prevent a burglary, but, you might be better off chasing the guy out of the house and let the cops find him and deal with it.

 

I strongly urge you to attend one of the CCW classes held by the NRA. Depending on the instructor, you can learn quite a bit of excellent information. We can go on and on about pistol license restrictions, but there were two cases in NY that upheld the "Licensing Officer's" authority to restrict a license due to "proper cause" issuance. We need this to make it to SCOTUS and then, only after Trump appoints at least two justices, do we really have a chance at overturning this infringement on our rights. It's going to take years.






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