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LEO's and CC's... Opinions/Thoughts?


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#1 Jetpilot718

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Posted January 04 2017 - 07:31 PM

Like most of you, I hold the relatively limited Hunting/Target pistol license here in Nassau County.  And I'm new.  That isn't a negative statement, actually the contrary.  When you're new, you're careful.  You read everything.  Every law, every statute, every possible interpretation.  I know what it says in black and white like most of you.

 

However, sometimes the interpretation is a moving target itself.

 

Yesterday was my first day CC'ing.  Went to the range, pistol on hip, for the first time.  The usual paranoia ensued.  Can people see my gun?  Is my mag pouch showing?  What if this damned thing falls to the ground in the parking lot and the snowflakes panic and call the police?

 

As you can expect, nothing bad happened.  I calmed down.  Professionally carried to the range, unloaded, checked in.  Dispensed 150 rounds of hate downstream, checked out, reloaded and went home.  I even stopped for a legal beverage break on the way home at an establishment where primary sales is NOT alcohol.  Mission accomplished.  

 

Then the questions came to mind.  Ones I've heard many others reiterate with no real answer in sight.  Some I hope you all can shed some light on, from a LEO's point of view.  What will happen to me, Johnny Law Abiding Citizen if...:

 

  • I'm a member of a 24/7 gun range!  That means I can pretty much always carry, as I'm "Always headed to or from the range - look Officer, my range bag is in my trunk.."  How do LEO's feel about this?  Are they on board with us as exercising #2A, or does the idea of citizens with firearms freak them out?  Is this statement legal, or will it land you in cuffs?

 

  • I'm on the way to the range and a crazed lunatic jumps in front of me.  He attacks me physically, but isn't trying to take my weapon (because I'm concealed and doesn't know I have one).  Just a crazy on a meth bender.  Am I legally liable for using my weapon to defend myself, since it isn't a "Full Carry"?  

 

  • What about to and from the range, while in the company of others?  For example, on the way back from the range and I pick up the wife.  She needs a few things at the grocery store.  Is this a legit stop?  What if I need something at Home Depot?  It's not for fuel, it's not food and beverage.  Is this "carrying outside of license"?

Please use the above to open discussion.  Like many of us, the very next thing I fear besides being forced to use my weapon is the legality and conforming to all of the rules NY places upon us.  



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#2 only7rounds

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Posted January 04 2017 - 08:28 PM

Like most of you, I hold the relatively limited Hunting/Target pistol license here in Nassau County.  And I'm new.  That isn't a negative statement, actually the contrary.  When you're new, you're careful.  You read everything.  Every law, every statute, every possible interpretation.  I know what it says in black and white like most of you.

 

However, sometimes the interpretation is a moving target itself.

 

Yesterday was my first day CC'ing.  Went to the range, pistol on hip, for the first time.  The usual paranoia ensued.  Can people see my gun?  Is my mag pouch showing?  What if this damned thing falls to the ground in the parking lot and the snowflakes panic and call the police?

 

As you can expect, nothing bad happened.  I calmed down.  Professionally carried to the range, unloaded, checked in.  Dispensed 150 rounds of hate downstream, checked out, reloaded and went home.  I even stopped for a legal beverage break on the way home at an establishment where primary sales is NOT alcohol.  Mission accomplished.  

 

Then the questions came to mind.  Ones I've heard many others reiterate with no real answer in sight.  Some I hope you all can shed some light on, from a LEO's point of view.  What will happen to me, Johnny Law Abiding Citizen if...:

 

  • I'm a member of a 24/7 gun range!  That means I can pretty much always carry, as I'm "Always headed to or from the range - look Officer, my range bag is in my trunk.."  How do LEO's feel about this?  Are they on board with us as exercising #2A, or does the idea of citizens with firearms freak them out?  Is this statement legal, or will it land you in cuffs?

 

  • I'm on the way to the range and a crazed lunatic jumps in front of me.  He attacks me physically, but isn't trying to take my weapon (because I'm concealed and doesn't know I have one).  Just a crazy on a meth bender.  Am I legally liable for using my weapon to defend myself, since it isn't a "Full Carry"?  

 

  • What about to and from the range, while in the company of others?  For example, on the way back from the range and I pick up the wife.  She needs a few things at the grocery store.  Is this a legit stop?  What if I need something at Home Depot?  It's not for fuel, it's not food and beverage.  Is this "carrying outside of license"?

Please use the above to open discussion.  Like many of us, the very next thing I fear besides being forced to use my weapon is the legality and conforming to all of the rules NY places upon us.  

 

The "restrictions" have no place in LAW. All they can ever do is suspend or revoke your permit.

Concealed is concealed.

The 24/7 range thing is total BS, because if you are challenged, you would have to convince the agent of the Police Commissioner, and he is NOT going to buy the idea that you were on way to the range at 4 AM Easter Sunday!

 

Having said all that, use common sense. Do NOT take your gun into a restricted building, such as a Court House. You get searched, and they WILL drop a dime on your. Bye bye permit.

 

IF you have to defend yourself, be guided by Article 35. Your gun is NOT illegal, on the way to the range or not. Always use ONLY the appropriate amount of force for the circumstances.


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#3 LarryD23

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Posted January 04 2017 - 08:52 PM

  • I'm on the way to the range and a crazed lunatic jumps in front of me.  He attacks me physically, but isn't trying to take my weapon (because I'm concealed and doesn't know I have one).  Just a crazy on a meth bender.  Am I legally liable for using my weapon to defend myself, since it isn't a "Full Carry"?  

Anytime you use your handgun you are legally liable. By that I mean that your are responsible or answerable to the law. 

 

The pistol licensing handbook is pretty clear in describing the use of force in defense of a person or property. You should read it as often as you need to in order to fully understand your rights and responsibilities.

 

Page 4 of the handbook sums it up pretty well:

 

"WARNING: It is strongly recommended that you DO NOT use deadly physical force unless it absolutely necessary to protect yourself or another person from deadly physical force.

 

REMEMBER: Your actions may be authorized by the penal law, but you can still be held accountable for your actions and sued civilly for same."

 

Anyone can sue for anything at any time. If you are not familiar with USCCA, you might want to look at what they have to offer.


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#4 Camaro45th

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Posted January 04 2017 - 08:57 PM

I'd like to know who the "snowflakes" are....

#5 2edgesword

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Posted January 04 2017 - 09:00 PM

My opinion...

 

The last place you want to discuss carrying out of class is a public forum. As far as, you can ONLY have your license suspended or revoked, you went through all that headache and jumping through hoops to get the license so using the word "only" to describe losing it is minimizing the consequences IMHO. Yes, arrest is not much fun either but having to explain having your license revoked if you should have to apply for a license in the future (pistol or otherwise where the questions of have you had a license revoked comes up) is not my idea of fun.

 

Having it, probably not needing it and being busted for carrying out of class versus needing it and not having it? Good question that each individual has to answer for themselves. I know LEO's that don't carry off duty because of the special care required when carrying. I know other individuals that won't leave their home without it.


Edited by 2edgesword, January 04 2017 - 09:01 PM.


#6 boosti

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Posted January 04 2017 - 10:42 PM

If you get stopped by the Police for a traffic violation. Do Not Say, I Have A Gun.
Never offer any information to a Police Officer unless it's absolutely necessary. You will advise the officer that you are licensed to carry if it gets to that part.
You will have no problems if you keep it concealed and learn to avoid a problem. Put blinders on when you are carrying to and from the range.
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#7 only7rounds

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Posted January 04 2017 - 10:43 PM

My opinion...

 

The last place you want to discuss carrying out of class is a public forum. As far as, you can ONLY have your license suspended or revoked, you went through all that headache and jumping through hoops to get the license so using the word "only" to describe losing it is minimizing the consequences IMHO. Yes, arrest is not much fun either but having to explain having your license revoked if you should have to apply for a license in the future (pistol or otherwise where the questions of have you had a license revoked comes up) is not my idea of fun.

 

Having it, probably not needing it and being busted for carrying out of class versus needing it and not having it? Good question that each individual has to answer for themselves. I know LEO's that don't carry off duty because of the special care required when carrying. I know other individuals that won't leave their home without it.

 

My point was merely that is it not a criminal charge.


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#8 2edgesword

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Posted January 05 2017 - 08:30 AM

My point was merely that is it not a criminal charge.

 

I understood your point. My point was having your license suspended or revoked can have long term consequences that shouldn't be taken lightly. Each person has to consider the cost/benefit of carrying out of class and make their own decision.

 

Actually I think the whole discussion, on a public forum, initiated by an adult that has his license is a little ridiculous. Read the penal law, read the handbook and use your adult intellect to make a decision about when, where and how you're going to carry. Don't look for justification from others (disguised as soliciting their opinion) for doing what you clearly understand is a violation of the guidelines (I'm a member of a 24 your range...).


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#9 winston

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Posted January 05 2017 - 08:55 AM

what really pisses me off is upstate the licenses are fully concealed carry not his nonsensical sportsman licence. We are supporting this stupid state wit hour taxes and yet are treated as second class citizens


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#10 firemanvin

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Posted January 05 2017 - 08:59 AM

At a meeting that I recently attended, which included SCPD Commissioner Sini, I personally heard Investigator Larusso, who is a civilian employee of the SCPDPLB, justify the “to and from range” administrative restriction based upon the following two reason:

 

1 - Suffolk County’s population density is too high to warrant unrestricted concealed carry by civilians.
 

2 - People that are issued NYS concealed carry licenses by the SCPDPLB are not responsible enough to by issued an unrestricted concealed carry license.

 

I seriously do not believe that they have any statistical data that backs this up.

 

Investigator Larusso also stated that they are complying with the Suffolk county law that states that no additional non statutory restrictions may be placed on a license however did not provide a valid explanation as to how they are complying with that law.

 

This is not third party hearsay – I was there and this was addressed directly to me and three other gentlemen, including Legislator Cilmi (who is on our side).

 

Folks, we need to ACT UP, and NOW - especially with President Trump coming on board and CCW reciprocity becoming a reality.  Complain to everyone you can that has anything to do with this unwarranted and unconstitutional treatment.  Start with your local legislator and work your way up.  Do the same in Nassau County, and even NYC too.  We need to stop being the so darn silent on this.  We are a very large group and we can make a LOT OF NOISE.


Edited by firemanvin, January 05 2017 - 09:09 AM.

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#11 Jetpilot718

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Posted January 05 2017 - 09:46 AM

My opinion...

 

The last place you want to discuss carrying out of class is a public forum. As far as, you can ONLY have your license suspended or revoked, you went through all that headache and jumping through hoops to get the license so using the word "only" to describe losing it is minimizing the consequences IMHO. Yes, arrest is not much fun either but having to explain having your license revoked if you should have to apply for a license in the future (pistol or otherwise where the questions of have you had a license revoked comes up) is not my idea of fun.

 

Having it, probably not needing it and being busted for carrying out of class versus needing it and not having it? Good question that each individual has to answer for themselves. I know LEO's that don't carry off duty because of the special care required when carrying. I know other individuals that won't leave their home without it.

 

The forum being monitored by local LEOs is not only fine, but exactly who I would have hoped would weigh in.  That was the point, to gain detailed understanding of the limitations of the license based on specific hypothetical scenarios posed above.  I think this is the first place discussion like this should occur.  These questions come from the vast misinformation flowing freely from others who have the Hunting/Target license and think they can do the things that are described above.  Quite obviously, I felt clarification was needed because as far as the regs go, they don't go into as much detail as I would like to see on this serious subject.  


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#12 Jetpilot718

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Posted January 05 2017 - 09:52 AM

 

 

Actually I think the whole discussion, on a public forum, initiated by an adult that has his license is a little ridiculous. Read the penal law, read the handbook and use your adult intellect to make a decision about when, where and how you're going to carry. Don't look for justification from others (disguised as soliciting their opinion) for doing what you clearly understand is a violation of the guidelines (I'm a member of a 24 your range...).

 

 

Welp.  I don't think its ridiculous.  I think what is ridiculous is that as a new licensee - I have more of an issue with these common hypothetical's that I hear from many, many long time pistol permit holders - than they do.  I felt like I understood the scope of the laws regarding the carry, yet still I hear guys who "belong to a 24/7 range and think they can carry at all times".  This is why I posted.  I don't seek (or need, lol) justification from others and there is no disguise applied.  Just maybe a little good old reading comprehension would benefit all here..  


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#13 firemanvin

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Posted January 05 2017 - 10:12 AM

The forum being monitored by local LEOs is not only fine, but exactly who I would have hoped would weigh in.  That was the point, to gain detailed understanding of the limitations of the license based on specific hypothetical scenarios posed above.  I think this is the first place discussion like this should occur.  These questions come from the vast misinformation flowing freely from others who have the Hunting/Target license and think they can do the things that are described above.  Quite obviously, I felt clarification was needed because as far as the regs go, they don't go into as much detail as I would like to see on this serious subject.  

IMHO - I truly, seriously doubt this forum is being monitored by "local LEOs".  With everything else that is going on out there, there is little strategic value to monitoring a forum like this.  Even if you has some overzealous off duty buff anonymously "monitoring" the forum thinking that he's going to be the next Bo Dietl, no one is going to take him seriously anyway.



#14 Jetpilot718

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Posted January 05 2017 - 10:54 AM

Lol! Bo Dietl...

The gun bunch are a private and quiet group of people. That's probably why some have issue with talking about things like this in a public forum. I get that and understand their reaction. But all of us here are here because we are like minded. None of us are looking for issues with the law and our CC. We are exercising to the best of our ability our 2A right, and that in itself sometimes feels illegal in the state of NY. The reason I posted and why I pose hypothetical questions is to have a mindset and proper education regarding matters we all hope we never have to face.

I'm new here. That's why I'm posting in the newbie section 🙃 If there are certain topics which make people uncomfortable, I understand and don't wish to make anyone feel uncomfortable here.
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#15 boosti

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Posted January 05 2017 - 11:21 AM

At a meeting that I recently attended, which included SCPD Commissioner Sini, I personally heard Investigator Larusso, who is a civilian employee of the SCPDPLB, justify the “to and from range” administrative restriction based upon the following two reason:
 
1 - Suffolk County’s population density is too high to warrant unrestricted concealed carry by civilians.
 
2 - People that are issued NYS concealed carry licenses by the SCPDPLB are not responsible enough to by issued an unrestricted concealed carry license.
 
I seriously do not believe that they have any statistical data that backs this up.
 
Investigator Larusso also stated that they are complying with the Suffolk county law that states that no additional non statutory restrictions may be placed on a license however did not provide a valid explanation as to how they are complying with that law.
 
This is not third party hearsay – I was there and this was addressed directly to me and three other gentlemen, including Legislator Cilmi (who is on our side).
 
Folks, we need to ACT UP, and NOW - especially with President Trump coming on board and CCW reciprocity becoming a reality.  Complain to everyone you can that has anything to do with this unwarranted and unconstitutional treatment.  Start with your local legislator and work your way up.  Do the same in Nassau County, and even NYC too.  We need to stop being the so darn silent on this.  We are a very large group and we can make a LOT OF NOISE.

To own a firearm is a huge responsibility. The county civilian employee needs to answer truthfully.
Many states have full carry with large populations.
This is a very good reason to challenge the civilian employee stance why he can judge people as not responsible.

#16 2edgesword

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Posted January 05 2017 - 11:27 AM

The forum being monitored by local LEOs is not only fine, but exactly who I would have hoped would weigh in.  That was the point, to gain detailed understanding of the limitations of the license based on specific hypothetical scenarios posed above.  I think this is the first place discussion like this should occur.  These questions come from the vast misinformation flowing freely from others who have the Hunting/Target license and think they can do the things that are described above.  Quite obviously, I felt clarification was needed because as far as the regs go, they don't go into as much detail as I would like to see on this serious subject.  

 

If you think an active duty LEO is going to "weigh in" on this issue and give ANY support for violating county rules on this issue you're...how do I say this kindly...never mind.

 

The penal law and handbook are the places to gain "detailed understanding of the limitations". Multiple discussions have taken place over the many years I've been on this forum and the end result of all of them is read the penal law and handbook.

 

You threw into your hypothetical making a false statement to a police officer. Beyond that all of the other hypothetical situations (picking up your wife and going grocery shopping, you need to stop and pick something up at Home Depot) are all covered in the handbook. Neither of those are car pooling, stopping to have a meal or the other things you can do that are incidental to going to or from the range.



#17 2edgesword

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Posted January 05 2017 - 11:41 AM

At a meeting that I recently attended, which included SCPD Commissioner Sini, I personally heard Investigator Larusso, who is a civilian employee of the SCPDPLB, justify the “to and from range” administrative restriction based upon the following two reason:

 

1 - Suffolk County’s population density is too high to warrant unrestricted concealed carry by civilians.
 

2 - People that are issued NYS concealed carry licenses by the SCPDPLB are not responsible enough to by issued an unrestricted concealed carry license.

 

I seriously do not believe that they have any statistical data that backs this up.

 

Investigator Larusso also stated that they are complying with the Suffolk county law that states that no additional non statutory restrictions may be placed on a license however did not provide a valid explanation as to how they are complying with that law.

 

This is not third party hearsay – I was there and this was addressed directly to me and three other gentlemen, including Legislator Cilmi (who is on our side).

 

Folks, we need to ACT UP, and NOW - especially with President Trump coming on board and CCW reciprocity becoming a reality.  Complain to everyone you can that has anything to do with this unwarranted and unconstitutional treatment.  Start with your local legislator and work your way up.  Do the same in Nassau County, and even NYC too.  We need to stop being the so darn silent on this.  We are a very large group and we can make a LOT OF NOISE.

 

The arguments and fear monger by this investigator are the same arguments that have been made and proven to be false over the 25 years or so since the practice of issuing CCW licenses have been in place. The number of incidences of license holders being involved in any type of criminal activity is miniscule. That said the only noise that's going to move the situation is noise out of the Supreme Court. Until a ruling from SCOTUS confirms the right a 2nd Amendment defense extents outside the home the powers that be in downstate NY are going to keep doing what they have been doing.


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#18 Machria

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Posted January 15 2017 - 01:26 AM

 

 

The penal law and handbook are the places to gain "detailed understanding of the limitations". Multiple discussions have taken place over the many years I've been on this forum and the end result of all of them is read the penal law and handbook.

 

 

Your joking right??  Please tell me you are joking?

 

I've read that so called "handbook" 5 or 6 times.  No, let me restate that:  I have STUDIED that handbook 5 or 6 times.  It has to be one of the most poorly written, UN-comprehensible rules/laws/handbook I've ever seen.  There are no clear sentences in it, and I think that is done on purpose so they can leave it up to courts to decide what they really mean later on.

 

So not only is the NY laws for pistols, carry and no carry... screwed up, so are the "handbooks" that try to decipher it for us regular folk.

 

Personally, me thinks about 50% of what is in the handbook would NOT hold up in courts because it is so poorly written. 


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#19 Trailblazer

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Posted January 15 2017 - 08:25 AM

Lets face it.  Only liberals think they should have a pistol permit.   its only for them. All others are not trust worthy.  I wonder how many liberals (a mental disorder by the way) hold pistol permits?  I'm afraid to guess...


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#20 Machria

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Posted January 15 2017 - 12:55 PM

 ... I wonder how many liberals (a mental disorder by the way) ...

 

LOL






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