Hello folks I'm new here. I'm a life member of the NRA, ex-New Yorker (Huntington) and now live in Southern California. I know, just as bad as New York for gun ownership. I'd like to get some input from Long Islanders on this issue.

I recently put up an AR180 for sale on Gun Broker which was won by a guy from Suffolk county Long Island. The gun belongs to a friend of mine who is older and not internet savy. Did you ever get a feeling that something is just not right about a certain situation. He tells me he wants to make 2 payments and we can hold the gun until full payement is recieved. He sends me the FFL # of a place in Garden City Park called T&T Tactical and the first $500 via PayPal. Today he calls and says he wants to pay the rest plus shipping and have the gun sent to the FFL. He's reluctant about giving up personal information although it came with his PayPal info. Says he doesn't want the wife to know about the gun. I look up the FFL# on the ATF site and it is legit. Then I look up NY state gun laws and find that there is an assult weapons ban in place for which this weapon would quality.

So I'm not sure what to think. Why would a dealer accept a banned weapon? Is there something about NY state law I don't know? Is this a sting by NY or Fed officials? Am I over reacting? I'm not completeing this deal till I know more.  

Your input is welcome.
Thanks

CC

t and t is legit  but the other details you have described a little fishy to me  give the shop a call directly and ask them if they are aware of the situation or maybe know the recipient

AR 180 is legal in NY if made before 1994 PM me

not very familar with ar180  but someone here probally could help

1. If you don't feel right about selling it, don't sell it.
2. If you feel the individual has something to hide, don't sell a firearm to he/she.
3. If the firearm is illegal to own by a citizen, don't send it. If it's legal to be own by a law enforcement officer, get proof the buyer is an officer.
4. I would request liscence information before selling any firearm.

5. (I could be wrong) Dealers can accept "banned" firearms as they could be purchased by LEO's. Example/ Standard capacity magazines for AR 15s can be found at most any dealer for law enforcement use.

I am not lawyer....

In my opinion it would be up to the FFL on the NY side to insure that the individual he is tranferring the weapon to can legally purchase the weapon.

Doesn't T&T deal primarily with LEOs ?

Quoted from 2edgesword

I am not lawyer....

In my opinion it would be up to the FFL on the NY side to insure that the individual he is tranferring the weapon to can legally purchase the weapon.

That's kind of the way I feel. I'll call the FFL directly and discuss with them, considering I'm told here they are legit.
CC

Like others have said: if it's a pre-ban AR180, it's no problem. I could be mistaken, but I thought those were only made in the '70s and '80s. I know there is a newer one (AR180B), which I think was discontinued as well. But the latter would be post-ban.

the rifle is ok to come here.
tnt, while it is NOT many things, IS indeed a legal FFL.
You can feel very safe sending it to an FFL, the FFL legally takes possession then runs the checks and transfers it to buyer

Hiding a gun purchase from a wife is universally normal I always thought.

Isn't the receiving FFL required to do a NICS check?

If you feel as if something is at a miss; contact the FFL directly to get some straight answers.

Quoted from ccmano

Hello folks I'm new here. I'm a life member of the NRA, ex-New Yorker (Huntington) and now live in Southern California. I know, just as bad as New York for gun ownership. I'd like to get some input from Long Islanders on this issue.

I recently put up an AR180 for sale on Gun Broker which was won by a guy from Suffolk county Long Island. The gun belongs to a friend of mine who is older and not internet savy. Did you ever get a feeling that something is just not right about a certain situation. He tells me he wants to make 2 payments and we can hold the gun until full payement is recieved. He sends me the FFL # of a place in Garden City Park called T&T Tactical and the first $500 via PayPal. Today he calls and says he wants to pay the rest plus shipping and have the gun sent to the FFL. He's reluctant about giving up personal information although it came with his PayPal info. Says he doesn't want the wife to know about the gun. I look up the FFL# on the ATF site and it is legit. Then I look up NY state gun laws and find that there is an assult weapons ban in place for which this weapon would quality.

So I'm not sure what to think. Why would a dealer accept a banned weapon? Is there something about NY state law I don't know? Is this a sting by NY or Fed officials? Am I over reacting? I'm not completeing this deal till I know more.  

Your input is welcome.
Thanks

CC

   The answer, to your question, is going to depend on when the AR-180 was manufactured and, if NOT manufactured and legally possessed, PRIOR TO September 14, 1994, what features the rifle has.
    The following is the language of NYS' "assault" weapons ban section of the NYS Penal Code, which details which are and are not legal. Since you are in possession, only you can make the determination, by checking the serial number, for date of manufacture and the features.
Gary

Section 265.21.
"Semiautomatic" means any repeating rifle, shotgun or pistol, regardless of barrel or overall length, which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge or shell to extract the fired cartridge case or spent shell and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge or shell.

22. "Assault weapon" means (a) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;
(v) a grenade launcher; or

(b) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or

(c) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics:
(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a semiautomatic weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic rifle, shotgun or firearm; or

(d) any of the weapons, or functioning frames of receivers of such weapons, or copies or duplicates of such weapons, in any caliber, known as:
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
(iii) Baretta AR70 (SC-70);
(iv) Colt AR-15;
(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9 and M-12;
(vii) Steyr AUG;
(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

(e) provided, however, that such term does not include:
(i) any rifle, shotgun or pistol that (A) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, slide action; (B) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or (C) is an antique firearm as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921 (a)(16);
(ii) a semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition;
(iii) a semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed of detachable magazine;
(iv) a rifle, shotgun or pistol, of a replica or a duplicate thereof, specified in Appendix A to section 922 of 18 U.S.C. as such weapon was manufactured on October first, nineteen hundred ninety-three. The mere fact that a weapon is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that such weapon is an assault weapon; or
(v) a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic pistol or any of the weapons defined in paragraph (d) of this subdivision lawfully possessed prior to September fourteenth, nineteen hundred ninety-four

Quoted from FatWhiteMan

Hiding a gun purchase from a wife is universally normal I always thought.

S.O.P.

Wow... thanks for all the replies... looks like your a good group.

I'm not normally this paranoid. I've done many out of state sales, always to FFL's, without any problems. This one just felt strange. As we all have, I've hidden a few from the wife over the years too. I think it's fairly clear now that this FFL is legit and an AR180 (built in the 70's) can be shipped to NY.

Here in CA you can't even bring an older preban AW into the state. Although certain configurations of AW's are legal and can be bought locally.
Thanks
CC

First the ffl would ship it back if not legal

Second paypal transactions can be reversed very easily within 60 or 90 days I think - never use paypal - refund the money and ask for a postal money order

As far as his wife who cares its his bed he has to sleep in at night

You should call T&T directly because among othere things, some FFL's here do not accept inbound transfers from non FFL's, and just because he gave you T&T's information does not mean he's set everything up with them properly.

It's totally confusing and many shops have their own "procedure". Generally the FFL will send you their information and then you photocopy your driver's license and put it in the box with the firearm.

It would not surprise me if  (some gun stores)  here were perfectly content to take in a non-compliant firearm and then present the end buyer with his options- my guess is those options include an outbound transfer fee to return the gun to you or "trading it in" to the FFL at a loss so they could them resell it to LEO.
.

Quoted from sigsauerny

First the ffl would ship it back if not legal

Legal as in NY legal or legal as in the individual purchasing the firearm is legal to own it?

Wouldn't the FFL on the receiving end know before the firearm is shipped whether it is legal to receive the firearm in NY?

I can imagine some nasty issues if the FFL on the receiving end takes delivery of the firearm to find out that for whatever reason the end customer isn't legal to own it.

Would the FFL on the receiving end check to see if the end customer is legal to purchase the firearm before the firearm is shipped?

Scenerio...

An FFL receives the shipment of a legal firearm. Purchaser arrives to pick-up the firearm and fails the NICS. What happens to the firearm if the NICS issue isn't resolved?

Quoted from 2edgesword

Legal as in NY legal or legal as in the individual purchasing the firearm is legal to own it?

Wouldn't the FFL on the receiving end know before the firearm is shipped whether it is legal to receive the firearm in NY?

I can imagine some nasty issues if the FFL on the receiving end takes delivery of the firearm to find out that for whatever reason the end customer isn't legal to own it.

Would the FFL on the receiving end check to see if the end customer is legal to purchase the firearm before the firearm is shipped?

Scenerio...

An FFL receives the shipment of a legal firearm. Purchaser arrives to pick-up the firearm and fails the NICS. What happens to the firearm if the NICS issue isn't resolved?

From the way it was once explain to me by a gunsmith(ffl) if it was sent from a ffl it gets ship back to the ffl. If sent from a non ffl he( the receiveing ffl) must notify the BATF&E. They take over from there.

Quoted from sigsauerny

First the ffl would ship it back if not legal

Second paypal transactions can be reversed very easily within 60 or 90 days I think - never use paypal (for this type of transaction) - refund the money and ask for a postal money order

As far as his wife who cares its his bed he has to sleep in at night

In addition to all the above, this may be your best advise.  However, make absolutely certain that you received the money in the first place before you refund it.  There may be a "reverse" feature in PayPal that should protect you either way.

Yes, they do exist. If you want to contact them:

T & T Tactical.
(516) 739-2607

2180 Jericho Tpke
New Hyde Park, NY 11040

If you go through a FFL, they will go through a check as well as all paperwork documenting the transfer.

An important thing to note is the magazines must be dated prior to 9/94 or 10 rounds or less.   If they are undated or dated earlier they're OK for NY.

How exactly were you going to do the interstate transaction other than shipping to an FFL?

Quoted from rocknat

From the way it was once explain to me by a gunsmith(ffl) if it was sent from a ffl it gets ship back to the ffl. If sent from a non ffl he( the receiveing ffl) must notify the BATF&E. They take over from there.

FFL can receive shipment from non FFL and it is perfectly legal for long guns

Q. Wouldn't the FFL on the receiving end know before the firearm is shipped whether it is legal to receive the firearm in NY?
A. No. There is no way the receiving FFL can know, in advance, the serial number of the firearm, to check the date of manufacture, unless the sending FFL advises him/her of it, which is not typical procedure.

Q. I can imagine some nasty issues if the FFL on the receiving end takes delivery of the firearm to find out that for whatever reason the end customer isn't legal to own it.
A. The FFL doesn't have any problems, at that point. S/he has done nothing except receive a legitimate firearm, in the normal course of business. The worst case scenario is that s/he returns it, to the sending FFL, after explaining why it's coming back.

Q. Would the FFL on the receiving end check to see if the end customer is legal to purchase the firearm before the firearm is shipped?
A. No. The FFL cannot run the NICS check, until after the prospective purchaser has completed the BATFE form 4473, which includes the specifics about the firearm and, if that person passes, the firearm must be transferred. It cannot, at that point, remain on the FFL's books, for more than a few days and the FFL cannot run a NICS check for the sale of a firearm not on his/her books.
Gary

Quoted from NRATC53

FFL can receive shipment from non FFL and it is perfectly legal for long guns

While it is legal, and you may find a NY dealer that will, most dealers in NY will not do it.
I have done a lot of out of state purchases and have yet to find a NY dealer on LI that will accept a shipment from a non FFL.  Every dealer I have spoken to says in a nice way "NY frowns on that practice and we don;t want to jeapordize our state/local license"

Quoted from Gary_Hungerford

Q. Wouldn't the FFL on the receiving end know before the firearm is shipped whether it is legal to receive the firearm in NY?
A. No. There is no way the receiving FFL can know, in advance, the serial number of the firearm, to check the date of manufacture, unless the sending FFL advises him/her of it, which is not typical procedure.

Q. I can imagine some nasty issues if the FFL on the receiving end takes delivery of the firearm to find out that for whatever reason the end customer isn't legal to own it.
A. The FFL doesn't have any problems, at that point. S/he has done nothing except receive a legitimate firearm, in the normal course of business. The worst case scenario is that s/he returns it, to the sending FFL, after explaining why it's coming back.

Q. Would the FFL on the receiving end check to see if the end customer is legal to purchase the firearm before the firearm is shipped?
A. No. The FFL cannot run the NICS check, until after the prospective purchaser has completed the BATFE form 4473, which includes the specifics about the firearm and, if that person passes, the firearm must be transferred. It cannot, at that point, remain on the FFL's books, for more than a few days and the FFL cannot run a NICS check for the sale of a firearm not on his/her books.
Gary

Thanks Gary. You've filled in the blanks for me.

It seems that it is ultimately the purchaser's responsibility to know whether or not he/she can legally own the firearm before he/she goes through with the purchase. He/she can't rely on the FFL to know this before hand although I imagine most FFL's would offer the purchaser some assistance (short of actually running an NICS check) to help them determine if in general terms the firearm is legal for him/her to own.

In the original scenerio provided by the OP if the firearm was received by the end customer's FFL and the final transfer failed (maybe a problem with NICS check) the firearm goes back to the senders FFL at the buyers expense (shipping, additional transfer fees, etc.) and the buyer is refunded the purchase price less all the fees required to get the firearm back into the sellers hands.

Couldn't T&T just make the firearm NY compliant?  I do not believe that shipping the a noncompliant firearm to a NY FFL is a problem.  The FFL simply cannot transfer it unless it is compliant.  I would really like to know if I am mistaken.  Thanks.

Quoted from aturi

Couldn't T&T just make the firearm NY compliant?  I do not believe that shipping the a noncompliant firearm to a NY FFL is a problem.  The FFL simply cannot transfer it unless it is compliant.  I would really like to know if I am mistaken.  Thanks.

If the firearm is able to be made compliant, yes they could. Would they? Up to the dealer.

I lived long enough in California, from what I know you can not transfer a pre ban assault weapon either by PPT(Private party transfer) or
out of state transfer if your in california.

Check with the ATF orange county before you get in trouble.

Quoted from SteveG

If the firearm is able to be made compliant, yes they could. Would they? Up to the dealer.

Unfortunately, an NYS FFL cannot accept a non-complaint gun, for sale. S/he can only ship is back.
Gary

Quoted from Gary_Hungerford

Unfortunately, an NYS FFL cannot accept a non-complaint gun, for sale. S/he can only ship is back.
Gary

I thought it was acceptable to have one made compliant
I stand corrected.
Thank you Gary

Production
ArmaLite's AR-16 design never progressed beyond prototype stage. However, the AR-18 was put into limited production, and underwent testing as an alternative to the AR-15. At this point, however, the AR-15/M16 rifle had been fully developed, flaws had been ironed out in successive modifications, and the U.S. military was not interested in acquiring yet another 5.56 mm service rifle.

Unlike the AR-15/M16, the AR-18 did not see substantial development over its life, and was not adopted in large numbers by any military service. In the end, the commercial failure of the AR-18 was not due to any significant flaws in its basic design, but in the lack of marketing efforts by ArmaLite. In 1968, dissatisfied with the way ArmaLite had marketed the AR-18, Arthur Miller left ArmaLite.

A semi-automatic version of the AR-18 design known as the AR-180 was later produced for the civilian market between 1969 and 1972 at Armalite's Costa Mesa manufacturing plant. The Costa Mesa AR-180s were one of the first military-type semi-automatic rifles to become widely available in the USA. Howa, of Japan, continued production of the AR-18/AR-180 from 1972 until 1974, but the Japanese government later forbade them to make war weapons, eventually axing the production. The Sterling Armaments Company of Dagenham, Essex, in the UK produced the AR-18/AR-180 from 1976 to the mid 1980s.

Quoted from Zen Buddha

Production
ArmaLite's AR-16 design never progressed beyond prototype stage. However, the AR-18 was put into limited production, and underwent testing as an alternative to the AR-15. At this point, however, the AR-15/M16 rifle had been fully developed, flaws had been ironed out in successive modifications, and the U.S. military was not interested in acquiring yet another 5.56 mm service rifle.

Unlike the AR-15/M16, the AR-18 did not see substantial development over its life, and was not adopted in large numbers by any military service. In the end, the commercial failure of the AR-18 was not due to any significant flaws in its basic design, but in the lack of marketing efforts by ArmaLite. In 1968, dissatisfied with the way ArmaLite had marketed the AR-18, Arthur Miller left ArmaLite.

A semi-automatic version of the AR-18 design known as the AR-180 was later produced for the civilian market between 1969 and 1972 at Armalite's Costa Mesa manufacturing plant. The Costa Mesa AR-180s were one of the first military-type semi-automatic rifles to become widely available in the USA. Howa, of Japan, continued production of the AR-18/AR-180 from 1972 until 1974, but the Japanese government later forbade them to make war weapons, eventually axing the production. The Sterling Armaments Company of Dagenham, Essex, in the UK produced the AR-18/AR-180 from 1976 to the mid 1980s.

Nice insights and good info. Thank you.
Gary

Quoted from SteveG

While it is legal, and you may find a NY dealer that will, most dealers in NY will not do it.
I have done a lot of out of state purchases and have yet to find a NY dealer on LI that will accept a shipment from a non FFL.  Every dealer I have spoken to says in a nice way "NY frowns on that practice and we don;t want to jeapordize our state/local license"

I know several that do it. They require ID from the sender

Quoted from NRATC53

FFL can receive shipment from non FFL and it is perfectly legal for long guns

They can. many won't. On LI, I'd even say most won't.

Quoted from Parashooter

An important thing to note is the magazines must be dated prior to 9/94 or 10 rounds or less.   If they are undated or dated earlier they're OK for NY.

all ar180 mags factory made are pre ban. ar-15 mags do not fit this gun