I bought a Saiga-12 a little bit ago and I was looking to replace the stock.  The paticular one I was looking at has the pistol grip attached to the stock.  Does anyone know if this stock can be put on this shotgun without getting in any kind of trouble.  I'm getting both sides of the coin from lots of people so I figured I would give this a shot and see if anyone here had any answers.  Any info would be great.  Thanks!!

No good in NY.  Too many evil features with the pistol grip.  From what the ban states I don't think you can use mags over 5 rounds either.  That may be up to interpretation since the law is so poorly written...

Here is the ban text:  http://www.longislandfirearms.com/forum/m-1259687888/

(b) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following
characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or

i think he is referring to the stock from tapco. however, the pistol grip does not protrude directly under the action of the firearm.

Yup...that's similar the one I'm talking about.  I wasn't sure if that part  of the ban applied because it was part of the stock versus being attached to the body itself.  

I'm getting an itch here now! It looks like with that Tapco, it's 2 features, telescoping stock and detachable mag (10 rounds or under in NY). That right?

ETA: I think thumbhole stocks are GTG if they're available as well.

That Tapco one does give you two "evil" features with the stock and grip.  Not sure if that one can be pinned in one position like you see some AR's.  And yes that magazine is detachable, the Saiga came with the 5rd magazine factory.  That's what's in the picture there.  I have seen some solid stocks with the pistol grip type attached to the stock and wasn't sure if you could install that or any other type close to that without getting yourself in trouble.

The semiauto shotgun only can only have one additional evil feature.  The Saiga already has the second evil feature of a detachable magazine.  NO PISTOL GRIPS ON NY COMPLIANT Saiga shotguns regardless of buttstock unless you plan on permanently affixing that 5 round mag...

Alright...without sounding ignorant and beating a dead horse!  Does one of the thumb hole type stocks count as a pistol grip type??  Or is that a whole different type of stock??  I've seen people put those types of stocks on their Saiga 7.62 rifles and such but I think they are in a different part of that ban all together.  

Quoted from NYram

i think he is referring to the stock from tapco. however, the pistol grip does not protrude directly under the action of the firearm.

How exactly is that not a pistol grip?

Quoted from Lostinthewoods

How exactly is that not a pistol grip?

ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;

From the looks of it, not beneath the action, it's attached to the stock.

To me that's where it's kinda gray

Quoted from Mr.Magoo

To me that's where it's kinda gray

True. You know the antis want pistol grip defined not only protruding but the way saigas, normal hunting rifles and shotguns come with?

ETA: Found from another board that the NYS Police do not consider thumbhole/skeleton stocks to be pistol grips. Not sure about monte carlo stocks.

For those of you that never learned your prepositional pronouns (About, above, across, after.....)  I will illustrate the meaning of above and below.  For those of you who a wish to comment incorrectly about something that is so glaringly obvious I leave you with this tidbit....  "If your not above me then ........"



Please refrain from posting erroneous comments in this type of thread.  The potential harm far outweighs the comedic value.  

Warmest regards....

  

I was told if you had the guts to do a thumb hole stock... make sure the items says rifle stock with thumb hole, cannot mention pistol grip at all.. Its nothing I think worth getting in trouble over... I have a saiga 12, I dont have a pistol grip... I keep it stock... added a scope thats it...

Quoted from Lostinthewoods

For those of you that never learned your prepositional pronouns (About, above, across, after.....)  I will illustrate the meaning of above and below.  For those of you who a wish to comment incorrectly about something that is so glaringly obvious I leave you with this tidbit....  "If your not above me then ........"



Please refrain from posting erroneous comments in this type of thread.  The potential harm far outweighs the comedic value.  

Warmest regards....

  

wow, didn't realize you were above everyone here. maybe you should read this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_action

from what that says the the action of a firearm has nothing to do with the stock.

Quoted from Lostinthewoods

For those of you that never learned your prepositional pronouns (About, above, across, after.....)  I will illustrate the meaning of above and below.  For those of you who a wish to comment incorrectly about something that is so glaringly obvious I leave you with this tidbit....  "If your not above me then ........"



Please refrain from posting erroneous comments in this type of thread.  The potential harm far outweighs the comedic value.  

Warmest regards....

  

there is no point in arguing somantics here guys. You may not have a pistol grip of the type shown. It doesn't matter if it is slightly behind where one would otherwise go, that Pg is clearly the type of Pg they don't want you to have, it's not worth the risk over a somantic technicality. The tapco stock is not meant for NYer's to skirt the ban, it is for Saiga owners who don't want to convert the rifle fully. I would also stay away from thumbhole stocks, i've never seen proof they are NOT considered pistol grips also.

Thanks everyone for all the info!  I wasn't looking to start a debate or anything, I was just looking to get some more info.  I haven't done anything to my shotgun and had not planned on jumping in head first without getting the real truth or as close as possible.  And I would like to think that one would be smart enough to get ALL the "facts" before changing any gun to try and "skate" around a rule on a technicality.  Some things are just not worth getting in trouble for.  

The closest you're going to legally come is a Dragunov style stock and even then you won't be 100% sure if you're legal.




_{Internet argument fact #12: The moment you reference Wikipedia, you've lost.}

Quoted from cas

Internet argument fact #12: The moment you reference Wikipedia, you've lost.

What's wrong with Wikipedia.......They have nothing but the absolute truth and best info there!!   sup

no reason to kill each other.  the laws are only as valid as the lawyers who back them.  the government be it local or federal always has more at their disposal than joe q. public.  these laws are written so unintelligibly and vague on purpose for just this fact.  the best answers are always from our experiences not from any source ie; i've done this without issue.  i saw a fellow get busted with that.  you get it.

Quoted from cas

The closest you're going to legally come is a Dragunov style stock and even then you won't be 100% sure if you're legal.




_{Internet argument fact #12: The moment you reference Wikipedia, you've lost.}

That's basically the type I was thinking was closer to being allowed than the Tapco one, but again it's not worth getting smashed for having it and knowing it's only by a technicality.       I'm not brave enough!!

Quoted from Robfather62

no reason to kill each other.  the laws are only as valid as the lawyers who back them.  the government be it local or federal always has more at their disposal than joe q. public.  these laws are written so unintelligibly and vague on purpose for just this fact.  the best answers are always from our experiences not from any source ie; i've done this without issue.  i saw a fellow get busted with that.  you get it.

Can't we all just get along!!  That's pretty much why I was asking here.  I had thought that maybe someone had an experience of their own or knew of someone who had changed one and had a story. Maybe had some info on what was good and acceptable or evil and out of the question.  Cause we all know how dangerous those pistol grips can be.  They are the root of all evil!!!  

I had the opportunity to shoot one of these when we were at the SHOT Show a couple of weeks ago in Las Vegas.

The magazine fed 12 ga. jammed quite a bit. The owner had a drum mag which did much better; however, it was very awkward to hold the thing due to the drum magazine's size restricting your hold on the fore stock.

Impressive and intimidating looking . . . yes.

Able to shoot it well . . . no.

Quoted from Mr.Magoo

Can't we all just get along!!  That's pretty much why I was asking here.  I had thought that maybe someone had an experience of their own or knew of someone who had changed one and had a story. Maybe had some info on what was good and acceptable or evil and out of the question.  Cause we all know how dangerous those pistol grips can be.  They are the root of all evil!!!  

spot on brother!  

Saiga 12: I want one.
The pistol grip option is tempting, but unfortunately a grey area, I'd not tempt fate over it. but you can still swap out the trigger group for a g2 trigger which is better and will really improve trigger feel/pull weight. You can put a flash hider on it if you want to, they are threaded for chokes and don't need their muzzle devices perm. attached. You can put on a standard AK type forarm, Dinzag arms sells the adapter to do that. And you can use/ own up to 10 round capacity mags (new manufacture, they dont need to be preban under 10 rounds) with the saiga, which is pretty sweet. And if you want optics you can swap out the gas tube for an ultimak rail. These are really rockin shotguns and have a lot of potential in that little AK reciever there. like I said, I want one!

Quoted from SemiAuto

Saiga 12: I want one.
The pistol grip option is tempting, but unfortunately a grey area, I'd not tempt fate over it. but you can still swap out the trigger group for a g2 trigger which is better and will really improve trigger feel/pull weight. You can put a flash hider on it if you want to, they are threaded for chokes and don't need their muzzle devices perm. attached. You can put on a standard AK type forarm, Dinzag arms sells the adapter to do that. And you can use/ own up to 10 round capacity mags (new manufacture, they dont need to be preban under 10 rounds) with the saiga, which is pretty sweet. And if you want optics you can swap out the gas tube for an ultimak rail. These are really rockin shotguns and have a lot of potential in that little AK reciever there. like I said, I want one!

I want one 2!

i have a dragunov stock on mine, i just picked up that way ,looks nice with this stock ,didn't get a chance to bring to range yet eric

This is the ATI FIBERFORCE STOCK on a Saiga-12.

Quoted from Mr.Magoo

Can't we all just get along!!  That's pretty much why I was asking here.  I had thought that maybe someone had an experience of their own or knew of someone who had changed one and had a story. Maybe had some info on what was good and acceptable or evil and out of the question.  Cause we all know how dangerous those pistol grips can be.  They are the root of all evil!!!  

Jefe, this is Evil:



No need to give thanks....

Quoted from Lostinthewoods

No good in NY.  Too many evil features with the pistol grip.  From what the ban states I don't think you can use mags over 5 rounds either.  That may be up to interpretation since the law is so poorly written...

Here is the ban text:  http://www.longislandfirearms.com/forum/m-1259687888/

(b) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following
characteristics:
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon;
(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; or

also i believe its illegal to own any kind of weapon with a drum mag, shotguns included, sorry

Quoted from WarFreak131

also i believe its illegal to own any kind of weapon with a drum mag, shotguns included, sorry

No... only if it's post ban.

Firs let me say that I am not being argumentative or stirring the Sh*t as has been said before.  I am merely presenting factual and documented information.  What you do with that information is up to you.

You may want to reconsider that ATI stock in NY.  According to the ATF letter you are no longer in compliance with 922(r) when installing a thumbhole stock on a Saiga.  The ATF considers the thumbhole stocks as both a stock and a pistol grip.  The good news is that it counts as 2 compliance parts if the stock is mand in the USA.  The bad new is that NYS would likely cite the ATF ruling about the stock when prosecuting a NYS Assault Weapon Ban case.  That would mean that you have a detachable mag equipped, semi auto shotgun with a pistol grip.  Clearly a violation of the NYS AWB text.    


ATF leter regarding thumhole stocks on the Saiga:

Dear Mr. LESchwartz:

This refers to your letter, received by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), September16, 2005, pertaining to a Saiga AK-type semiautomatic rifle. Specifically, you requested a clarification regarding modifications to Saiga rifles. Your letter was forwarded to FTB’s new location in Martinsburg, WV, for reply.

As you may be aware, the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), 18 U.S.C. § 922(r), prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations contained in 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 1 78.39) include the stipulation that “no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of certain imported parts, if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.”

These parts are tabulated below:

(1)   Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings.
(2)   Barrels.
(3)   Barrel extensions.
(4)   Mounting blocks (trunnions).
(5)   Muzzle attachments.
(6)   Bolts.
(7)   Bolt carriers.
(8 )   Operating rods.
(9)   Gas pistons.
(10)   Trigger housings.
(11)   Triggers.
(12)   Hammers.
(13)   Sears.
(14)   Disconnectors.
(15)   Buttstocks.
(16)   Pistol grips.
(17)   Forearms, handguards.
(1   Magazine bodies.
(19)   Followers.
(20)   Floor plates.

Because certain AK-type semiautomatic rifles are currently prohibited from importation, the assembly of such rifles using more than 10 of the above imported parts is prohibited under § 922(r). However, assembly of AK-type semiautomatic rifles using 10 or fewer of these imported parts is not prohibited under this section.

With respect to the questions in your letter, we will answer them in the order they were posed, as follows:

Question 1: Would modifying a Saiga rifle by replacing the existing buttstock with a ‘thumbhole style” stock result in a rifle prohibited from importation under Title 18 USC, Section 925(d)?

Answer: Yes. if your Saiga rifle is assembled using more than 10 of the imported parts in the above-cited 922(r).

Question 2: With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 17, section 478.39(c): Is thumbhole style stock counted as a buttstock, as a “pistol grip”, or both?

Answer: Both: The “thumbhole stock” about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock, therefore counting as two parts with reference to the parts listed in 27 CFR § 478.39(c) (formerly 178.39(c)).

Please note that the above answers are applicable to .223, 7.62x39mm, and .308 calibers.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your questions.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

Ok, so without getting beat up and just for the sake of the conversation.  What about this type of skeleton stock??

http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/images/stock.jpg

It's not a thumbhole stock but it does have that "grip" piece on it.  Where does this type of stock fall into the mix??  

The ATF see's it like this regarding fixed stocks:  Non-pistol grip and pistol grip.  If it looks like a duck it is a duck.  There is no distinction in the ATF's eye's between a thumhole/dragunov and pistol grip.

Quoted from the ATF letter:
"The “thumbhole stock” about which you inquire is considered a combination of a pistol grip and a buttstock"